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Thread: Discussion tangent: On naturalized players in NTs

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    Discussion tangent: On naturalized players in NTs

    I think that Italy showed a little bit more today than Hungary but the real neck breaker for the home team was the awful black day Hetenyi had. The first two goals were unfortunatley decisive. Nothing against the Blue team but Hungary at the top would just have added a lot more given the enthusiasm the Hungarians have for their team.

    Team Italy formula: 1/3 Südtirol, 1/3 Canada, 1/3 real Italy ;-)

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    IHF Member Lovo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungarianfan View Post
    Südtirol, which is not really Italian
    South Tyrol get a lot of big real italian money... so now they're happy to be real italians

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Yes, South Tyrol is an autonomous region, and yes, its inhabitants are ethnically more Austrian/German than Italian and yes, there is some support (although not a clear majority, from what I understand) for South Tyrol reuniting with Austria, or becoming its own nation-state.

    With all of that said, these guys did not refuse to put on the blue jerseys that say "Italia" across the front.

    If they were willing to do that, and represent the nation of Italy, then they are, in my view, real Italians.

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    IHF Member zamo86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RexKramer View Post
    Team Italy formula: 1/3 Südtirol, 1/3 Canada, 1/3 real Italy ;-)
    If the data on Eliteprospects is correct then its more like: 45% Can/Usa, 32% Südtirol and 23% real Italy. But then again Südtirol is a region in Italy so its 55% Italy. Still, very sad that half of the team are imports from North America. Can stand watching a nation like Hungary, which is making a real effort on and off the ice in promoting and developing the game of ice hockey in their country, to get defeated by a country which simply buys their own players.

    I really hope that someday IIHF will improve their rules regarding citizenship swap and enforce new rules. Now a player can change his citizenship and play for a new country with 2 (?) years playing in that country (4 years if he played junior hockey for another country before that). Lets wait for a day when some Sheikh decides he wants a strong national ice hockey team in the desert.

    Also, I dissliked Britain once for the same reason. But now I see they are developing their own players. Only 4 North Americans in their squad for this years Div I WC (3 of them are 33 or older so are probably left from the old system).

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    IHF Member Dex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zamo86 View Post

    I really hope that someday IIHF will improve their rules regarding citizenship swap and enforce new rules. Now a player can change his citizenship and play for a new country with 2 (?) years playing in that country (4 years if he played junior hockey for another country before that).

    And I hope don't !

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Hahahaha!
    Of course naturalizing a team of Canadians sound pretty good to a Croatian member right now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovo View Post
    South Tyrol get a lot of big real italian money... so now they're happy to be real italians
    Südtirol is by now in an absolutely priviledged position with the autonomy statute, you are completely right and referring to @MarcB, a referendum on secession of Südtirol from Italy has never been less of an issue than now and people who are actively stirring this issue up are mostely far right wing extremist dumbheads.
    From my experience with people from Südtirol (and I know quite a lot, including a fair number of hockey guys), they are very pragmatic about this issue and have neither a problem with seeing themselves as citizens of the Italian republic nor with seeing them as a members of a minority within this state that is culturally, linguistically and histrorically not Italian but very strongly regionally rooted and for which even the term Tyrolean is already too coarse (not to speak of Austrian). Interestingly this is a typical feature of also the real Italy which is culturally and histroically extremely diverese.
    This strong regional aspect makes most hockey people be die hard fans of their home town teams but also care pretty little about the things in the greater hockey world including the national team as it seems to me. I regularily read the forum of a Südtirol based hockey portal and there I get the impression that club issues are much more important to the people and the performance of the Blue team is mainly important to people if players of their own clubs are involved which establishes a direct connection from the local hockey movement to the higher level of the NT. This link seems to play a big part in motivating people to care about the NT not a national sentiment. I think if Südtriol hockey wasn't as big as it is in Italian hockey but just one of several provinces that sustain the sport in the country and there were just a few Südtirol players on the Blue team no one would really care about the NT (unless it was much more successful ;-).

    But that is all off-topic ;-). The small Italian hockey community has a reason to rejoyce, mission accomplished. That a substantial part of the team is not trained in the country is another issue but the rules allow it and imho there's good reasons to allow it although I think that Italy uses the possibility to an unhealthy extent. But that's their problem.

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    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RexKramer View Post
    ...But that's their problem.
    No, it's Hungary's problem, and the problem of every other country that's trying to grow the sport at home using home-grown talent.

    It may be legal on a technicality, but really, it's NO different than what Armenia did - except the Armenian players were actually Armenians ethnically.

    I really don't believe there's anything for the Italians to be happy about. Bringing in players from other countries just to move up to a higher level does nothing much to develop the country's hockey program, essentially it just makes the NT another club team.

    I really hope the rules get changed - you're only eligible to play for the country whose youth system you came up in.

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    Or if they are going to treat it like a club team, make rules like club rules. Only make it legal to have a certain amount of players on your team who are 'foreign trained'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    No, it's Hungary's problem, and the problem of every other country that's trying to grow the sport at home using home-grown talent.

    It may be legal on a technicality, but really, it's NO different than what Armenia did - except the Armenian players were actually Armenians ethnically.

    I really don't believe there's anything for the Italians to be happy about. Bringing in players from other countries just to move up to a higher level does nothing much to develop the country's hockey program, essentially it just makes the NT another club team.

    I really hope the rules get changed - you're only eligible to play for the country whose youth system you came up in.
    Personally I think that the national teams should reflect the strength of the hockey in a country. What the term "hockey in a country" refers to is not unambiguous imho. Is it the players developped solely within this country or is it also the players (or also coaches) from abroad the hockey organisations of the country are able to attract? I can not deny either of these and typically we don't have a problem with the success a country achieves in sport guided by foreign coaches. Furthermore, a modern, open world with people bound forever to one country isn't possible and I wouldn't want to live in such a world. Therefore, the current system is a reasonable compromise. The fact that some countries exploit the system in a way that the idea of the NTs being a competition of the "systems" gets absurd is the inviteble downside. But there's no strong enough reason to throw that overboard I think.

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    IHF Member zamo86's Avatar
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    Thats why IIHF should enforce a rule that a player who was born in one country and went through its youth system must play continouisly at least, lets say, six years in another country on club level if he wants to switch nationality and play for the new country. Two years is a joke really.

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    IHF Member Oz's Avatar
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    nvm
    Last edited by Oz; 24-04-2011 at 20:11.

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    IHF Member Lovo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zamo86 View Post
    I really hope that someday IIHF will improve their rules regarding citizenship swap and enforce new rules. Now a player can change his citizenship and play for a new country with 2 (?) years playing in that country (4 years if he played junior hockey for another country before that).
    All the italo-canadian players didn't change citizenship, they had double citizenship since they were born from italian parents.
    Only in Toronto there's a 500.000 people italian community and many of them have double citizenship.
    Our coach, Rick Cornacchia, was born in Puglia and then moved to North America, but he's fully italian.
    Many of these guys are really proud of wearing the blue jersey.
    The point is not on citizenship but on hockey school: they're full canadian players that decide to move to Italy in order to have a change to play as professional.
    IMHO Italy should import no more than four transfer card for every Serie A club, in order to give more and more space to our valuable young players.
    Our national U18 and U20 are getting better and better and they are composed only by italian school players.

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    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovo View Post
    Our national U18 and U20 are getting better and better and they are composed only by italian school players.
    This is great news. I look forward to seeing them in the national team, instead of Canadians.

    You mention the large Italian community in Toronto. Well, there are a lot of Hungarians in Canada too, and a lot of Poles, and a lot of everything else. Going overseas to play professional club hockey is one thing; playing for an NT is another entirely, IMO.

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    IHF Member Lovo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    This is great news. I look forward to seeing them in the national team, instead of Canadians.
    In WC U18 Div I in Riga: Italy - Hungary 5:1 http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/245/IHM245200_76_10_0.pdf
    In final ranking Italy was 2nd after Latvia.

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    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    The main problem is the fact that the IIHF does not limit the number of naturalized players for each team. for me it would be a maximum of 5 players and good bye.

    note that the chikago has about 1 million Serbs, somewhere in North America have as many Croats, etc, etc. .. only if some 0.1% of them play hockey there is good number of players which can play (if they deserve by quality) for their country.

    and why the original Serb, Croat and Polish, Italian, must have to play 2/or 4/ years in their home country? what is point of that rule, I do not understand?... stronger countries will easily avoide the laws like this.

    If a Serbs, Croats, or anyone else have passport of his mother country they should have the right to play for his country. why only Armenia is punished if we can see that other countries doing same (but they do that with "style")?

    p.s.
    how communicate in Italy NT, on what language - on italian or english?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovo View Post
    In WC U18 Div I in Riga: Italy - Hungary 5:1 http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/245/IHM245200_76_10_0.pdf
    In final ranking Italy was 2nd after Latvia.
    Just for remark, our squad was packed with 16 year olds. I think we had the youngest team.

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    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BASSA View Post
    and why the original Serb, Croat and Polish, Italian, must have to play 2/or 4/ years in their home country? what is point of that rule, I do not understand?... stronger countries will easily avoide the laws like this.

    If a Serbs, Croats, or anyone else have passport of his mother country they should have the right to play for his country. why only Armenia is punished if we can see that other countries doing same (but they do that with "style")?
    If a player has held a passport for all their life, they are eligible for the national team immediately. But, if they, for example, were born in Canada to Serbian parents but only held a Canadian passport and citizenship, they would have to fulfill the obligations of the 2 or 4 year rules once they obtained their new citizenship.

    I believe that is correct but I could be wrong.

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    If a player has held a passport for all their life, they are eligible for the national team immediately. But, if they, for example, were born in Canada to Serbian parents but only held a Canadian passport and citizenship, they would have to fulfill the obligations of the 2 or 4 year rules once they obtained their new citizenship.

    I believe that is correct but I could be wrong.
    Wrong.
    Any player who has multiple citizenships, whether from birth or later acquired, must have played two full years in a country (without playing anywhere else during that time) before he represents that country on the international scene. In the case of the Italians, and soon the Croatians, who have large parts of their teams as Canadian-born and -trained, those players all took out citizenship for their new country and played there for multiple seasons before becoming eligible.

    In the case of Armenians, since the question was asked, there was no proof whatsoever that the players had ever played two full years solely in Armenia. In fact, while many players had played two years or more in Armenia, records were readily available online to show that those same players had played in America during that same period, thus voiding the time they had spent.
    IIHF rules show that players must spend the two-year (not two seasons, but two calendar years) exclusively playing in their country of choice.

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    ......And as we all know, the IIHF routinely ignores this rule, and rules concerning requirements for a country's national league (number of teams, number of games per team), in the case of many (if not most) Division 2 and 3 nations, and even certain Division 1 nations such as Lithuania. If they didn't, the federations of those nations would likely die.

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    IHF Member Lovo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BASSA View Post


    If a Serbs, Croats, or anyone else have passport of his mother country they should have the right to play for his country. why only Armenia is punished if we can see that other countries doing same (but they do that with "style")?
    Serbia, Croatia or anyone else should have a national club championshiop were this guys should play at least two seasons in a row. I don't know if they can satisfy this condition. For exemple, italian championship isn't rich enough to hire a goalkeeper like Luongo, who was born in Italy. So Luongo won't wear blue jersey.
    So a lot of greek, serbian or croatian nhl players probably will never be eligible for their national team, since they don't have club able to pay good salaries for two season in a row.

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    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovo View Post
    a goalkeeper like Luongo, who was born in Italy. So Luongo won't wear blue jersey.
    Wasn't Luongo born in Montreal?
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennison View Post
    Wasn't Luongo born in Montreal?
    Yep definitely born in Montreal lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neugs View Post
    Yep definitely born in Montreal lol
    Montréal, Monte Reali, what's the difference? ;-)
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    IHF Member Lovo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennison View Post
    Wasn't Luongo born in Montreal?


    Yes, I was wrong: his father was born near Avellino, in Campania (where there's no ice at all...).
    Anyway, the point is that he has double citizenship... but he will never play for team Italy, since he will never play two consecutive years in serie A, unfortunately...

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    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    He'd actually need 4 years. And it's still possible, it would just have to be after his NHL career ends due to age and fading ability. And are you sure he has dual citizenship? Not that it truly matters but both EuroHockey.com and EliteProspects.com show him as only Canadian citizenship.

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    IHF Member Lovo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    He'd actually need 4 years. And it's still possible, it would just have to be after his NHL career ends due to age and fading ability. And are you sure he has dual citizenship? Not that it truly matters but both EuroHockey.com and EliteProspects.com show him as only Canadian citizenship.
    His father is italian, so he's automatically italian too.
    Anyway he's played for Canadian NT, so he won't be really eligible, it was just an example...

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    source: nso.hu

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    IHF Member Snype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovo View Post
    Serbia, Croatia or anyone else should have a national club championshiop were this guys should play at least two seasons in a row. I don't know if they can satisfy this condition. For exemple, italian championship isn't rich enough to hire a goalkeeper like Luongo, who was born in Italy. So Luongo won't wear blue jersey.
    So a lot of greek, serbian or croatian nhl players probably will never be eligible for their national team, since they don't have club able to pay good salaries for two season in a row.
    would a better example be say olaf kolzig??

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    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    Maybe but neither are truly good examples because Luongo has never considered playing for Italy and Kolzig has never even considered himself South African.

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    While Kolzig was born in South Africa, he only ever held one single citizenship: that of Germany.

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    IHF Member zamo86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovo View Post
    Serbia, Croatia or anyone else should have a national club championshiop were this guys should play at least two seasons in a row. I don't know if they can satisfy this condition.
    Actually, Croatia has a club that plays in EBEL which is a lot stronger league then Serie A so they could "satisfy this condition" (and they are going to). And your case about Luongo is weak IMO. He was born and raised in Canada and picked up everything he knows of hockey there. He has nothing to do with Italy and their NT and I dont know why would he ever play for that country, even if there would be a chance. As his mother has Irish roots I could use your theory and argue that he is infact Irish. Or Gretzky being Belarusian..

    NT means developing your own hockey players not buying them and paying them to play for your NT what Italy does and Croatia will do in the near future (and GB did as well but looks like they came to their senses, which is good for their hockey anyway). That is why I will allways cheer against those teams and their mercenaries, whoever they play with.

  33. #33
    IHF Member WHawks's Avatar
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    You're strongly opposed to Greg Kuznik playing for your country as well?
    Not saying I disagree with you. Just that pretty much all European nations have a player or 2 that aren't born and raised entirely in the country they now play for.
    I'm aware some countries has taken this to an extreme, Italy probably being the best example. And this is where I think it becomes problematic. And the fact that it sometimes seems Croatia is purposely importing these players with the objective of making them available for the NT, but then again it's the clubs that's importing them not the nation itself so...

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    IHF Member zamo86's Avatar
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    Yes, I actually dont like him being part of the team (and I am not the only one). Lets put aside the quality of the player and what could he bring to the NT, but I would very much rather see a new young guy from Bled or Kranj then some old guy from Canada that is said to have some ancestors that once upon a time lived in Slovenia. Luckily, it is extremely rare for this NT to use mercenaries in its squad.

    The NT that uses most of the foregin players in their squad (Italy the prime example) are importing the players togheter with the clubs. Thats why the clubs bring in players that usually have at least a minor connection with that country (his fathers grandfather if you will:).

    IIHF has to make a rule and change things. Max three naturalised players of something.. (handball has the same problem).

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    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    again, it's not easy that country like serbia can hire for one of his clubs some OUR boys from canada, or swiss, or somewhere else. we have no money for our competition, we have only 2-3 icehalls (3-4 clubs), and big problem with finding sponsors because hockey is not like football, or basketball here. we have only 50 players and only 20 of them are play for money, but that money is for smile.

    what we can do, only to develope young categories but that is not enough for bringing money by some companies. this is only surviver. but yes, we can say that richest nations like italia can pay some players from abroad and hire him later for his NT.

    is it same?

    give us chance that we bring some our boys (with our passeports) to play ONLY for NT and we (maybe) have some small chances to find some sponsors which will give some money, an build our league on higher level, with more players, with more clubs, with more icehalls. and after all situation is gona be better because we could have same conditions like other nations which hockey level is on the more-more higher step (in serbia only if you have some results you can expect some help from others).

    point! - isn't is better and fairer that boy with our passepor freely play for his mother contry and help them to find better conditions for hockey/ OR we all support iihf and their rules for 2years playing where?, or for what?, in what conditions?, in what cind of league - 12 games per year?. those boys are no guilty that he goes abroad because they country is can't give to his familys good jobs, better future for they lives. give them chance to play for their poor country! (maybe just this will be step for better days in serbian/croatian hockey - if oour country beat teams like italian like ex yugoslavia do in past years). why not?
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  36. #36
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    We can't deny that players from abroad who played a certain amount of time in a country's system also have contributed to the sport in this country (and the sport in this country has then also contributed to their careers) and thus should, given some constraints, be also allowed to represent this country on international level.
    To reduce eligibility only to the fact of having played youth hockey within a country leaves out too many aspects of the sport. If it is ultimately so important where a player has been developped I don't see a reason not to extend this nationality principle also to coaching. Coaching is an extremely important part of any sport, why do we allow foreigners to coach other national teams? We could apply the same reasoning that you guys use to argue against naturalized players also against foreign coaches and yet nobody does it (for good reasons).
    Import players have been instrumental for the sport of hockey in many countries and still are (there would very likely be no professionalism in hockey in most of the countries outside a few strongholds without the import of players, coaches, knowledge etc...) so having them included in a national team if the acquire the citizenship of the country CAN (what an irony) be completely in line with the idea that a national team shall represent the strength of the hocky system in this country and so disallowing naturalized players in NTs is simply wrong. Furthemore, there'd be so many loopholes and ambiguities that paradoxical cases would arise necessarily - why should Kölzig basically be able to play for Germany but Luongo not for Italy (or Ireland)? Both have been trained solely in Canada...

    And as putting up a limit on the number of naturalized players in an NT is imho completely absurd, you simply can't discriminate against persons that are citizens of the same country on basis of a quota. If a person qualifies for the NT everyone else fulfilling the same criteria must be able to play as well (the FIFA was arguing for the 6+5 rule in int. club team soccer and failed, how on earth should something like that go through for NTs in which by definition all mambers have a passport for the country).
    The only thing one could do is extend the period of time a person has to have been playing in the country's system. If it was up to me let it be 3 and 6 years but don't replace a sensible rule with something stupid just because a few countries expolit it to the extreme...

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    No. Develop. Make a 20 year plan. Struggle and build icehalls. Grow yuth teams and compete in international level. Compete in foreign leagues. Make money from hockey. Boost attendance. Find media coverage.
    Come to learn in Denmark or Hungary.

    I'm pretty much disappointed how this thread developing. It should be about how F**ing awesome this tournament had been! All Hungary's games were sold out, and much more tickets could be sold. For the italy match 3 times tis many tickets could have been sold alone. There were 2-3000 people on non-hungarian matches too!
    Why don't we talk about the finals, how high the quality of the play was, what little the difference was... How awesome Scandella, Sofron or Ladányi is....
    I wouldn't care how many Johnsons, Watkinses, Wilsons etc. are playing for the Italians if we had that little bit of luck...

  38. #38
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    in that case iihf favorised richest nations which have good conditions, and have money to develope and pay youth program and coahes from abroad... and have money to bring good hockey players for their leagues.

    what's the problem with foreighn coaches- they don't play games? - that is only right way for develope not only hockey than others sports too.

    for example- in baketball, boys from afica, which study in usa, can play for nigeria without problem. and fiba is not against that, and don't push some rules that he must play 2 years in desert conditions. stupid.

    rule is bad and favorised only rich countries which have money for expensive sport like hockey. bye.
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  39. #39
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    All players holding only one nationality (passport) from birth is automatically eligible to play for that country. Any Serbian national moving to USA is not exempt from playing for Serbia. Rules regarding playing 2 years in a country relates to dual nationals or players acquiring a new citizenship. 4 years is recquired if they have previously represented another country in IIHF tournaments.

    Your analogy with african basketball players going to the USA to play basketball is equivalent to a Serbian national leaving Serbia to play hockey in USA. Such a player would be allowed to play for Serbia unless he also acquires US citizenship.
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BASSA View Post
    in that case iihf favorised richest nations which have good conditions, and have money to develope and pay youth program and coahes from abroad... and have money to bring good hockey players for their leagues.

    what's the problem with foreighn coaches- they don't play games? - that is only right way for develope not only hockey than others sports too.

    for example- in baketball, boys from afica, which study in usa, can play for nigeria without problem. and fiba is not against that, and don't push some rules that he must play 2 years in desert conditions. stupid.

    rule is bad and favorised only rich countries which have money for expensive sport like hockey. bye.
    Back 20 years ago we had no permanent indoor rinks... Just get on with it it can be done I promise, just takes determination and hard work.

  41. #41
    IHF Member jaaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veghist View Post
    Back 20 years ago we had no permanent indoor rinks... Just get on with it it can be done I promise, just takes determination and hard work.
    I absolutely agree. To grow the sport in places like Croatia and Serbia, you first need to build the basic infrastricture at the youth levels and above everything people who are absolutely devoted to developing the sport in the country and not in other gains. Just look at Croatia, they have a team in EBEL and it of course helps to make the game more popular, but for the well being of Croatian hockey it doesn´t make even half of the impact that for example building 5 hockey rinks outside Zagreb and creating new clubs where players can develop would. And the fact that Medveščak has been in EBEL for two years now and despite it´s popularity it hasn´t inspired anyone in Croatia to build at leats one new rink seems to prove my point. Or look at Slovakia and the Czech republic, you can have some of the absolutely best athletes in the sport wearing the jersey of your national team and even be succesful there, but it doesn´t change anything if your youth system is not good and if the propagation of the sports isn´t good enough (The Czechs are the 2010 WC Champions, which could only be beaten by the OG gold medal in popularising the sport and yet in just one year the number of Czech junior players has fallen by whumping 8% from 2010 to 2011, one of the two only negative changes in the top 20 of sports).

    It´s as Pršljen´s signature says:
    Hokej u Hrvatskoj ima svjetlu budućnost SAMO AKO mjerodavni ljudi rade svoj posao kako treba - Pršljen

    He says it for Croatia, but the same could be said abour Serbia.

    And no IIHF is not advantaging rich countries, they are advantaging countries that have people who are willing to build the sport mainly with what they have at home. The fact that a huge part of the Elite and Division I countries are countries from former Eastern European block and that they have been competing there for the past 20 years, even when they were poorer than they are now, proves it.

    veghist, the tournament was f**king awesome and I´m happy that I had the opportunity to watch some of the games on TV......some ral good hockey was played in Budapest this past few days.....

  42. #42
    IHF Member Spitfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zamo86 View Post
    Actually, Croatia has a club that plays in EBEL which is a lot stronger league then Serie A so they could "satisfy this condition" (and they are going to). And your case about Luongo is weak IMO. He was born and raised in Canada and picked up everything he knows of hockey there. He has nothing to do with Italy and their NT and I dont know why would he ever play for that country, even if there would be a chance. As his mother has Irish roots I could use your theory and argue that he is infact Irish. Or Gretzky being Belarusian..

    NT means developing your own hockey players not buying them and paying them to play for your NT what Italy does and Croatia will do in the near future (and GB did as well but looks like they came to their senses, which is good for their hockey anyway). That is why I will allways cheer against those teams and their mercenaries, whoever they play with.

    If you ask me 99% of world (including you) can cheer against Croatia, of course slovenians always cheers against Croats because it is well known fact that you hate us, but I will be die-hard fan of Team Croatia that, hopefully, will include Nick Drazenovic, Phil and Victor Oreskovic and Mark Dekanich one day.
    Last edited by Spitfire; 26-04-2011 at 14:57.

  43. #43
    IHF Member Hockey_Algeria's Avatar
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    Can someone clarify something for me, if a player was born in a country (and holds that passport), moved to another country as a child or teenager and learned to play there, which country is he eligible to play for?

  44. #44
    IHF Member jaaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey_Algeria View Post
    Can someone clarify something for me, if a player was born in a country (and holds that passport), moved to another country as a child or teenager and learned to play there, which country is he eligible to play for?
    Well, that depends, from IIHF:

    IIHF ELIGIBILITY

    To play in the IIHF World Championship, the Olympic ice hockey tournament and the qualifications to these competitions, players must fulfill the following qualification requirements:
    Each player must be under the jurisdiction of an IIHF member national association.
    Each player must be a citizen of the country he represents.

    Acquiring a new national eligibility (The ‘two-year’ case)
    When a player has changed his citizenship or has acquired another citizenship and wants to participate for the first time in an IIHF competition representing his new country he must:
    Prove that he has participated for at least two consecutive years in the national competitions of his new country during which period he has neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey within any other country.
    Have an international transfer card (ITC) that shows the transfer to the national competition of his new country and which was approved and dated at least two years before the start of the IIHF competition in which he wishes to participate.

    Change of national eligibility (The ‘four-year’ case)
    A player, who has previously participated in IIHF competition, can switch national eligibility (but only once in a player's life) if:
    He is a citizen of the new country of his choice
    He has participated for at least four consecutive years in the national competitions of his new country, during which period he has neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey within any other country and has not played for his previous country in an IIHF competition during this four year period.
    He has an international transfer card (ITC) that shows the transfer to the national competition of his new country and which was approved and dated at least four years before the start of the IIHF competition in which he wishes to participate.
    And btw Spitfire, maybe you should reread the thread, zamo86 has clearly stated that he is very opposed to the ides of Kuznik playing for Slovenia for example.....

  45. #45
    IHF Member Spitfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaaa View Post
    Well, that depends, from IIHF:



    And btw Spitfire, maybe you should reread the thread, zamo86 has clearly stated that he is very opposed to the ides of Kuznik playing for Slovenia for example.....


    Yes, I did and because of that I deleted first part of my post. Second part is true ;-)

  46. #46
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veghist View Post
    Back 20 years ago we had no permanent indoor rinks... Just get on with it it can be done I promise, just takes determination and hard work.
    back 20years ago we had strong country, in every sport we have somewhere on the top, and our hockey (ex yugoslavia) was extremely popular how in slovenia also in serbia and croatia. that was one of strongest days of our hockey, medvescak was one of best team by all those teams like jesenice, olimpija, partizan, zvezda, we have good league, many young talented players, we have some or "some" future.

    and what happend - war... we split on the pieces, many of people move to other countries, who cares about hockey 4-5 years?... and not so long another "nato's regards",... maybe that was chance for some maniacs to build icerinks ? - but nobody do that.


    Your analogy with african basketball players going to the USA to play basketball is equivalent to a Serbian national leaving Serbia to play hockey in USA. Such a player would be allowed to play for Serbia unless he also acquires US citizenship.
    no, that boy came in usa over his father long-long time ago, but he learned to play basket in USA and because of that have no problem with playing to his own africa's country.

    we have also 1945 big emigrations after II world war, and there was our boys (we have lot of wars and lot of emigrations more times ), or crotian boys - who normal want to ask for serbian or croatia passeport in USA or CAN for his child?... and this child learned to play hockey and want to play for his country, but rule is that he must go somewhere where he can't find job, where nobody gives him money for nothing only because he want to play hockey two years in serbia and after that be able to play for NT. stupid.

    but like you said, 20 yers ago... and all is history.

    p.s.
    nobody thinks that these players may have been the best advertisement for underdeveloped countries if they play for national team, it's much better that we have some rules who cares about advertismant.
    Serbian hockey
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  47. #47
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BASSA View Post
    we have also 1945 big emigrations after II world war, and there was our boys (we have lot of wars and lot of emigrations more times ), or crotian boys - who normal want to ask for serbian or croatia passeport in USA or CAN for his child?... and this child learned to play hockey and want to play for his country
    But if someone emigrated from Serbia (well, Yugoslavia back then) to USA in 1945, I have a hard time with the argument that their grandchildren are Serbian. Their country is USA, is it not? Or how many generations back do you think is acceptable?
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

  48. #48
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennison View Post
    But if someone emigrated from Serbia (well, Yugoslavia back then) to USA in 1945, I have a hard time with the argument that their grandchildren are Serbian. Their country is USA, is it not? Or how many generations back do you think is acceptable?
    same like that basket player (which father was slave in history) who is black - no white?... alex (aleksandar) gajic, milan gajic, nenad gajic, milan lucic, nikola bibic > whose names are his? "black" or "white"?
    Serbian hockey
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  49. #49
    IHF Member jaaa's Avatar
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    The idea that for example Stan Mikita should have been eligible to play for Czechoslovakia sounds absurd enough to me and that´s while he actually was born in Slovakia and spent some years here before he emmigrated. The idea that his grandcildren should play for Slovakia seems even more absurd to me.

    Those Serbians that emmigrated are maybe still partly Serbian even in the 3rd generation, but they are Canadian-Serbians or American-Serbians. Just as for example Yan and Paul Stastny as 2nd generation immigrants are American-Slovaks and that is what they consider themselves.

    If IIHF allows to play these players for Serbia without further rules or restrictions, what will be next? Top notch NHL players from Canada or the US playing for Great Britain, France or Germany based on immigration decades and centuries ago? Or maybe the Swedish players like David Petrasek or Patrik Nemeth should play for the Czech republic and Hungary respectivelly? Or maybe you´ll even want Branko Radivojevič? Or maybe the Slovak born and grown brothers Samir and Garip Saliji will start to play for either Macedonia or Albania as that is their origin?
    How are we going to avoid a situation in which all countries in the world are going to claim "their" immigrants in Canada and US to play for them? And in that case which country is still going to bother to work and create their own programme?

  50. #50
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaaa View Post
    And in that case which country is still going to bother to work and create their own programme?
    who spoke to large hockey countries? (usa, can, svk, cze, rus, blr, let, ita, swe, fin...????). i spoked for small countries like my country is, like croatia, like bulgaria, ... we need help, but what i'v see here > that is not ok.

    and how we can create our own programme? with what? waiting better economic days?

    or bring some black basket player (who also learned to play hockey in canada), inviting him to serbia and give him job for 200 euro two years, and after that we have clean situation that this guy can play hockey for serbian national team, btw he is not original serbian but never mind, first serbian black man on the skates.


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