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Thread: Discussion tangent: On naturalized players in NTs

  1. #251
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHawks View Post
    Yeah it makes me a bit sad to see, and clearly for some of these guys it has nothing to do with Croatia heritage either.
    Yeah, I haven't exactly heard of 'MacAulay' as being a very popular Croatian surname
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  2. #252
    IHF Member WHawks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starkovs View Post
    Is Korea really adding players though, they currently have three with foreign passports, four if you wish to count Woo Je Sung but he was born in Korea just played his youth hockey in Canada. Out of those three who were actually born outside Korea, I would really only count Testwuide as the "ringer" player. Radunske has spent seven years in Korea, five of those before he ever suited up for the national team while Swift has been there for four.

    I will wait to see what they do over the next few years before I criticize them for bringing in foreigners. I dont have that big of a problem with who they have besides Testwuide and somewhat Swift.
    They have 4, Bryan Young was cut for some reason, I assume injury or personal obligations. My main problem is the rate at which they're doing it adding 4 dual players in just 3 seasons, 2 just this season. And the fact that it is blatantly because of the Olympics, as stated somewhere else in a different thread, the rules for obtaining citizenship was changed just for this reason as well.
    Isolated I don't have a problem with any of them, it's the timing combined with the speed at which they're doing it from having none in the past.

  3. #253
    IHF Staff Starkovs's Avatar
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    Ahh alright, thats a fair enough reason and I didnt know they added Young as wel. Hoping they dont start adding more and more players.

  4. #254
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    The cat is out of the bag. Hungary neutralized 2 payers. In the past there were neutralizations, but this is OK for a country with such a large diaspora. But now we have 2 born and raised Canadians. Sure, they like it here, I think Banham will even settle here eventually, but still, this is something new. Hungary was strongly against this, but with these stupid IIHF rules, somebody said if everyone is doing it so will we...
    Interestingly, the national federation doesn't really encourage neutralizations, domestic teams do, and the coach picks from what is available. Anyway I think we can safely say that Hungary will have 3-4 neutralized players in the team in the next years. The local public is divided, needless to say. This is something new.

  5. #255
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    I'm with Starkovs here to a degree... the "Koranucks" appear to be, to a greater or lesser degree, lifers. Radunske has spent a lot of time there and is still there, not even moving around the league. Swift ditto for now.

    As for the Cronucks, half of them moved on to different teams in different countries within a year of playing their first game for Croatia. ... pretty convincing that you love that nation so much that you wanted to become part of its society.

    I'm going to compile a bunch of tweets I put out this morning... note I tagged the IIHF in these.

    I have beef with the @IIHFHockey relaxing eligibility requirements for players while tightening them for national teams
    @IIHFHockey we see Croatia bringing in a bunch of Canadian players and giving them passports to play for the NT but there's little growth
    @IIHFHockey meanwhile a Greek program that had grown to 800 registered players has had its funding pulled when they got removed from the WC
    @IIHFHockey greek hockey is dead. Croatian hockey is on track to not have a single domestically trained player on the NT by 2020
    GBR 3-2 CRO, and not a single point by a domestic trained CRO player @IIHFHockey. Does this really represent the level of Croatian hockey?
    Touched on more than one subject there, but I think it sums up my thoughts on the changes to IIHF regs well enough.

  6. #256
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    Croatian hockey community (coaches, players, former players) is predominantly against the policy of Canadasation of the nationa team. However, except for the former players like Lovrenčić and Belić, vast majority is afraid of speaking publicly against it. Those who coach or play in Medveščak are quiet because Medveščak is behind this policy in order to satisfy requirements of EBEL and KHL of number of national players in the team. Those from other clubs are silent because Medveščak took full control of the national team appointing its coaches and managers to run the national team all with association's rubber stamp.

    The fans are divided. Those who are in some way involved in hockey are against it. Nobody wants to have his son scratched from the national team because some third class Canadian is getting his expenses covered by the Croatian national hockey association in order to spend spring vacation in Croatian national jersey. Coach MacLean even got Letang out of retirement rather than some of domestic defenders.

    On the other hand, there are plenty of hockey fans who got attracted to sport in 2009. with Medveščak in EBEL and who, in this globalised world where Americans play basketball in Russian national team or Qattar winning World silver medal in handball with team full of imports, see no evil in Croatian ice version of Qattar going all the way to Olympic Games.

    In this public relations cause blindness, those fans can't comprehend that hockey federations with far more money than Croatian one can and will bring better Canadians and that those Canadians that Croatia can afford can't compete with Norwegians, Danes, Germans, Latvians, even if those teams play solely with domestic players.

    Apparently, Croatian hockey would have to wait for Medveščak's house of cards to get itself to sustainable level before this madness eventually goes away.

  7. #257
    IHF Member Snapshot's Avatar
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    I like your ethnic clean NT with Metcalfe, Sarauer and Banham

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapshot View Post
    I like your ethnic clean NT with Metcalfe, Sarauer and Banham
    Who told that I like it?

  9. #259
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Serbian hockey
    Senior 2A - U20 2B - U18 2B

  10. #260
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    No Russian, chinese or South Korean naturalized players?! Impressive!

    [/sarcasm]

    lol

  11. #261
    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    No Russian, chinese or South Korean naturalized players?! Impressive!

    [/sarcasm]

    lol
    Nobody with Japanese bloodlines either. Victory for Juche, victory for the Eternal President! So sayeth the ghost of Division IIIs past.
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  12. #262
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    Sometimes I wonder what do we know for sure about the conditions in North Korea and what is generated by various intelligence services.

  13. #263
    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    (In Russian) Accorinding to vesti.kz, Kevin Dallman won't be the only North American-born player for Kazakhstan next year, being joined by Brandon Bochenski (as expected) but also Dustin Boyd and Nigel Dawes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Dawes via vesti.kz
    I'm very excited. Especially the opportunity to play in the top division. I have never participated in the World Championships. I played a long time with Brandon and Dustin, and now have the opportunity to play together for the national team, and it causes only positive emotions.
    One up-shot....
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Dawes
    Each year, more and more I try to learn the Kazakh language. Sometimes it is very hard, but I always try to remember something new. One day I will speak in Kazakh and be able to communicate in this language with the players, the fans and the media.
    This goes along with a contract renewal and the public relations speak of wanting to stay with Barys as long as they want him.
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  14. #264
    IHF Member WHawks's Avatar
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    So sad, now that Netherlands, Italy and Great Britain has finally stopped this silly way of artificially strengthening their national team several new nations steps up doing it instead.
    I think it is indeed time to take a look at the rules again, clearly this 2 year rule is absolutely useless on top of stopping players that in every sense belongs to a certain nation while not being eligible for various reasons in their youth.

    Nothing wrong with doing this once in a while for players that truely feel they belong to a new nation, but doing it on this scale is pathetic quite frankly.
    Last edited by WHawks; 27-04-2015 at 04:07.

  15. #265
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Dallman, Bochenski, Boyd and Dawes are as much Kazakhs, or Kazakh-Russians, as I am. Which is to say not at all.

  16. #266
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHawks View Post
    So sad, now that Netherlands, Italy and Great Britain has finally stopped this silly way of artificially strengthening their national team several new nations steps up doing it instead.
    I think it is indeed time to take a look at the rules again, clearly this 2 year rule is absolutely useless on top of stopping players that in every sense belongs to a certain nation while not being eligible for various reasons in their youth.

    Nothing wrong with doing this once in a while for players that truely feel they belong to a new nation, but doing it on this scale is pathetic quite frankly.
    2018. *sigh*

  17. #267
    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHawks View Post
    I think it is indeed time to take a look at the rules again, clearly this 2 year rule is absolutely useless on top of stopping players that in every sense belongs to a certain nation while not being eligible for various reasons in their youth.... but doing it on this scale is pathetic quite frankly.
    And that's the better rule compared to the women's side!

    First off, women shouldn't have a second and even easier rule to acquire eligibilty. I understand why it was done, to artificially close the gap firstly for Korea and secondly for everybody to the North Americans, all while acknowledging women only get paid to play in Russia. Hell, the professional import players that exist almost exclusively play for their homelands already, for example Karoliina Rantamaki. Change: End the women's clause.

    Secondly, I'm in favor of completely ditching the 2- and 4-year rules. The 2-year rule is a complete farse but 4 years is about 20-25% of a player's effective professional career. I'd propose sticking a fifth or even sixth year onto the club requirement. A player would have to look at it and say "I can't play in the next Olympics, I'll be on the far side of 30 if I stay here just to get eligible - and we might not qualify for the Olys or the (elite) World Championships. Am I committed enough to spend 5-6 years here?" Change: 2- and 4-year rules dropped for 5/6-year rule.

    Idea number three is limiting the change of nationality. As the rule was before the 2- and 4-year clauses, you could not change nationality after the age of 18. I'd introduce the idea of allowing players to change nation between junior and senior tournaments one time. Once a player represents a senior team (anything over U20, including U22), even if still junior-aged or an exhibition match, they are locked in and unable to change. Change: Brandon Bochenski played for the US senior team before gaining eligibilty for Kazakhstan, that'd no longer be possible. Geoff Platt played for the Canadian U18s, but not an over-20 team, before gaining eligibility for Belarus, that's still permissible.

    My fourth proposal, to standardize the Hari/Nylander/Stewart rulings, is for specific cases of junior dual-national players. The, quite frankly, bullshit move to Hari would be eliminated. If a player has documented proof of playing in Nation A before acquiring citizenship of Nation B, they can choose to play for Nation A - regardless of what age it was. Nylander played in Canada but not Sweden. A player having only played in one country of citizenship is only eligible for that country. As for Lil Rod, a dual-citizen having never played in either country of citizenship can choose which one to play for and change thereafter falling into the above rules. Change: Clarification and standardization of rule, see below;

    Case one, Hari. Acquired dual-nationality, played as a very young boy in Hungary, moved to Sweden and got passport. Eligible for Hungary or Sweden as a junior as he played in Hungary prior to the Swedish passport (see below) or Sweden (played 5/6 years).
    Case two, Nylander. Born dual-national, played in Canada, later went to Sweden. Not eligible for Sweden until fulfilling 5/6 years of exclusively Swedish club hockey.
    Case three, Stewart. GB-NZer but only played in USA. Eligible for Great Britain or New Zealand as a junior.

    The final idea is a limit of dual-citizens.* This is a difficult one. Firstly, you have to grandfather all current players even if you aren't happy about it. They became eligible under the rules at the time and it's unjust to take that away from them. Secondly, players representing Nation A before acquiring a second passport would not count - they are already eligible for Nation A. Scenario three is the major change. Players acquiring a second passport to play for Nation B. Only four such players would be permitted on an official IIHF tournament roster. Change: See explanation below.

    Examples:
    Case one, Alan Letang is grandfathered in and eligible for Croatia.
    Case two, Nikolai Antropov is eligible to play for Kazakhstan only (played for Kazakhstan before getting Canadian citizenship).
    Case three, Canadian having never represented Canada at any level, acquires citizenship of South Africa. Eligible to play for SA after 5/6 years of exclusively SA club hockey - but only if one of four "imported" dual-nationals.
    Case four, American having played U20 but never on a senior team, acquires citizenship of Mexico. Eligible to play for Mexico after 5/6 years of exclusively Mexican club hockey - but only if one of four "imported" dual-nationals.
    Case five, 17-year old Russian played for Russian senior team. Played for the senior team, only eligible for Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber
    Dallman, Bochenski, Boyd and Dawes are as much Kazakhs, or Kazakh-Russians, as I am. Which is to say not at all.
    They have passports so they have that going for them. I'm not defending the policy but we have to avoid ethnicity or it gets into a very convoluted discussion. I don't think Sidney Crosby is from the First Nations.

    As Graham mentioned years ago, the national feeling does matter though completely immeasurable. In the heat of the moment, if a naturalized player says something along the lines of "we played for our nation," that means something. When they are saying "I'm going home for the summer," and it's a reference to Flin Flon, Manitoba - they better be playing for Canada!
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  18. #268
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    I agree with most of your points except the Nylander case of your fourth idea. Born a dual-national, I don't see 5/6 years as being reasonable to be eligible for one of your nationalities. That's the same as for players acquiring a nationality later in life.

    There are quite a few children born to European NHL players that achieve dual nationality at birth and then start playing hockey while their father is still in NHL. Requiring these children the choice of playing 5-6 years in their (European) home country or wait to start playing hockey once back in Europe is not fair. Neither is depriving them of the choice of playing for their countyr of birth (CAN/USA).

    I'd rather have the rule for dual nationals since birth being that as long as they have played two seasons in either country they are eligible for that country. After representing a country they fall under your third idea, i.e. they can change once between junior and senior but once they have represented a country at the senior level that is it.
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

  19. #269
    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennison View Post
    I agree with most of your points except the Nylander case of your fourth idea. Born a dual-national, I don't see 5/6 years as being reasonable to be eligible for one of your nationalities. That's the same as for players acquiring a nationality later in life.

    There are quite a few children born to European NHL players that achieve dual nationality at birth and then start playing hockey while their father is still in NHL. Requiring these children the choice of playing 5-6 years in their (European) home country or wait to start playing hockey once back in Europe is not fair. Neither is depriving them of the choice of playing for their countyr of birth (CAN/USA).

    I'd rather have the rule for dual nationals since birth being that as long as they have played two seasons in either country they are eligible for that country. After representing a country they fall under your third idea, i.e. they can change once between junior and senior but once they have represented a country at the senior level that is it.
    That would be more sensible since you bring it up. Hadn't put it to mind that 5/6 years is a quarter of their life! Nylander only did one year in Sweden if I remember correctly but the IIHF OK'ed him as an exceptional case. That could be abused but 2 years might be fair as it allows for players to get out of school and return to their other homeland. There isn't much revenue in junior hockey outside of North America so it's unlikely junior "superclubs" would be started to work around the rule.
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  20. #270
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    In regards to your 5-6 year rule.

    What would be your thoughts regarding players from Yugoslavia who moved due to the war? I'll use Bosnia as an example as that is much closer to me. What would be your thoughts regarding someone who was born in Bosnia, moved during the war, was formally trained in Sweden and acquired Swedish citizenship? There are others who were born during or shortly after the war throughout Europe and North America who maintain both passports. Is it really fair to punish bottom tiered teams who do not have the finances, resources, or a "professional" league/team to qualify their own citizens? Two years is hard enough on these players...

    Fully understand where you're coming from based on people who no roots or ties to a country, however what about people who do?

  21. #271
    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by auerbachk View Post
    Is it really fair to punish bottom tiered teams who do not have the finances, resources, or a "professional" league/team to qualify their own citizens? Two years is hard enough on these players...

    Fully understand where you're coming from based on people who no roots or ties to a country, however what about people who do?
    I wouldn't say it's punishing lower-tiered NGBs. It's about making players make (lasting) contributions to the nation they wish to represent. If a player really wants to represent a nation, they have to make that decision. If not, it doesn't mean enough to them.
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  22. #272
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Trim, I like your ideas. I'm pretty much on board with them, though I do like Bennison's amendment a lot too.

    Of course, having that happen would require the IIHF to see some form of sense, and we all know that's not likely to happen anytime soon...... :(

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trim View Post
    Case two, Nylander. Born dual-national, played in Canada, later went to Sweden. Not eligible for Sweden until fulfilling 5/6 years of exclusively Swedish club hockey.
    Actually, Nylander was born in Canada but never played there. He grew up in the U.S.

  24. #274
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    And now China will start with the handing out of passports to non-Chinese players to artificially strengthen their national team and try to get into the Olympics. They will do it through 'Kunlun Red Star,' a never before seen club that will join the KHL and play out of Beijing. When will the madness end?

  25. #275
    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    China

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    And now China will start with the handing out of passports to non-Chinese players to artificially strengthen their national team and try to get into the Olympics. They will do it through 'Kunlun Red Star,' a never before seen club that will join the KHL and play out of Beijing. When will the madness end?
    There is a possibility they won't be handing out passports because, as a single-party state, they need to have control over everybody. For example, China is one of the very few countries that doesn't recognize the International Driving Permit. Foreign and Chinese citizens have to register with the police upon checking into a hotel - even if you stay with friends for 24 hours, you have to register with their local police. Even hotels have to be licensed to accept foreign guests. Even without citizenship, birth in China still leads to an outrageous amount of paperwork; my son has three documents used for travel because the Chinese authorities refuse to honor his American passport.

    However, news recently broke that the Party is considering allowing dual nationality. Officially, it is because of children born to mixed-national couples of recent times. My first reaction was how comically far behind China is for 2022 in so many sports.
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  26. #276
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    China's fellow Asian country South Korea is once again in The Hockey News about their naturalized players: http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/hi...2018-olympics/
    Twitter: @CSmeeth

  27. #277
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    And once again the IIHF promote naturalizing players with Anton Peronmaa and maybe Olexi Voitsekhivsky and Oleg Zadoyenko for Turkey

    http://continental-cup2017-groupa.ii...rkish-delight/

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