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Thread: eligable players for Team IRELAND???

  1. #51
    IHF Member KevinMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    But my point is that it is not generally known about nor discussed in great detail here by the rank and file in Ireland, and certainly not a point that has been aired in detail by the leadership.
    The situation of our international eligability was discussed at the AGM and it was confirmed that 2012 would be our last year to compete in the international competitions unless we met the rink and league requirements. At that point it was said that it if we did not meet requirements then it would not be the end of Team Ireland, and the plan was to use roller hockey facilties to keep in shape and still play on ice friendlies. Since the Santry rink became likely i guess that it was not longer a pressing issue as it could be our home and host the league. Although the only question mark was about seating as Santry will still not meet seating requirements.

  2. #52
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Many nations do not have either full championships, or a rink meeting seating requirements.
    As long as a full-size rink and a championship is held, some exceptions can be made (see Luxembourg or Israel for championship issues for example).
    The seating requirements in the rink have more to do with hosting ability than anything else. As long as a regulation rink is in place and a legitimate effort is made at hosting a true national league/championship, the seating can be and has in the past been overlooked.

  3. #53
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    It is really important I agree that all efforts should be made to open Santry, I can totally see the importance if it maintains access to international competition for us. BUT not at the expense of another rink, and especially not when we just don't know when Santry will finally open.

  4. #54
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    Is the alleged Santry rink going to be full IIHF regulation size?

  5. #55
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    RDP perhaps we could ask Kevin Mc to find that out for us. Neither you nor I have had much success in getting even the most basic reply from them where statistics are concerned - your own attempts are listed in great detail elsewhere on this forum, but Kevin is confident so perhaps he can establish the dimensions for us.
    If at all possible I would love to know the composition of Team Ireland too please Kevin.

  6. #56
    IHF Member KevinMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    RDP perhaps we could ask Kevin Mc to find that out for us. Neither you nor I have had much success in getting even the most basic reply from them where statistics are concerned - your own attempts are listed in great detail elsewhere on this forum, but Kevin is confident so perhaps he can establish the dimensions for us.
    If at all possible I would love to know the composition of Team Ireland too please Kevin.
    I thought I was clear about what is fact and what is opinion in my posts but perhaps I should clarify, the issue of our Internationally Eligability i would say is fact as it was discussed at the AGM. I've not said too much about Santry as the only information I have is whats been published in the Irish Hockey reader newsletter so I would not be able to get exact measurements expecially as it's not open to the public. There are pictures on the hockey newsletter if you would like to look at it and form your own opinions if it's big enough to met regulations, I think I will keep my opinon on that to myself incase it comes back to bite me rear end.

    As for Team Ireland, I've not made any comment on this years squad as I have no information on that at all, so Mick sorry I can't help you there.
    Last edited by KevinMc; 08-04-2012 at 13:06. Reason: grammer

  7. #57
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    Clarrification

    Hi Kevin,
    The thing is, neither RDP nor I seem to get a reply if we ask straight forward questions. You mentioned that you did, so I was just asking if it would be possible for you to find out the rink dimensions and team composition too. In the meantime we will continue to try to find these things out ourselves.

  8. #58
    IHF Member KevinMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    Hi Kevin,
    The thing is, neither RDP nor I seem to get a reply if we ask straight forward questions. You mentioned that you did, so I was just asking if it would be possible for you to find out the rink dimensions and team composition too. In the meantime we will continue to try to find these things out ourselves.
    Well i could certainly ask. I have got replies before when pressing the north of Ireland issue however it did take time so can't guarantee an answer or when it Will come. A yes or no answer if its big enough for regulation games might be more likely in meantime as getting the exact size might require the iiha to find out exact figures if they don't have them.

    As for team Ireland i am not gonna get involved with that at present. When the gm/coach want that information public it should be their place to release that. I could ask if there are plans to release the final squad names on the site soon or if a date has been set for that. But i would not request rosters or names.

  9. #59
    IHF Member madeleine's Avatar
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    I find this whole ice hockey forum fascinating, there are more strategies and tactics going on here than in a game of chess. It really makes you think, like I always say, question everything.
    'There is no authority but yourself' Crass

  10. #60
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I find this whole ice hockey forum fascinating, there are more strategies and tactics going on here than in a game of chess. It really makes you think, like I always say, question everything.
    Too many pawns for this to be chess Madeleine, and not enough knights 8-)

  11. #61
    IHF Member madeleine's Avatar
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    I just have a hunch about something here, and I don't know if it's the result of an over active imagination or perceptive intuition, I just can't figure out which. Because if I'm wrong here then I'm very wrong.
    'There is no authority but yourself' Crass

  12. #62
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    Do you want to PM me Madeline ?

  13. #63
    IHF Member madeleine's Avatar
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    Believe me, I have tried- it's not not getting to you because it says your message box is full
    'There is no authority but yourself' Crass

  14. #64
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    I will delete something now . Just give ne a moment please.

  15. #65
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    Five days before the tournament begins and still no roster. And yet there have been two requests for the hockey community to attend fundraising events. It shows the level of respect the IIHA has for the hockey community outside of their corrupt and disingenuous clique.

  16. #66
    IHF Member KevinMc's Avatar
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    Ok folks got a reply to my queries. Firstly as far as the association is concerned the santry rink is to the NHL specifications and any league run out of it would be officially recognized under iihf.

    As for team Ireland. Those that have been selected have been informed and those who did not make it this year have also been informed. The decision not to release a roster straight away was made as some players had requested not to be named to avoid harassment which had happened in previous years. So as yet no date for a public roster. Preparations are taking place to try ready the team for challenge ahead.

    Before anyone jumps on my case this is a response to the questions i mentioned in an earlier post and not a press release. I don't speak for the association just relaying as much information as is available.

  17. #67
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinMc View Post
    Ok folks got a reply to my queries. Firstly as far as the association is concerned the santry rink is to the NHL specifications and any league run out of it would be officially recognized under iihf.

    As for team Ireland. Those that have been selected have been informed and those who did not make it this year have also been informed. The decision not to release a roster straight away was made as some players had requested not to be named to avoid harassment which had happened in previous years. So as yet no date for a public roster. Preparations are taking place to try ready the team for challenge ahead.

    Before anyone jumps on my case this is a response to the questions i mentioned in an earlier post and not a press release. I don't speak for the association just relaying as much information as is available.
    Hey Kevin, Well done and a big thank you. I doubt that we would have got any reply at all. Good news that the rink is within the parameters of IIHF standard size
    Two things though
    1/ We the supporters, still, don't know the panel that will travel to represent us, so that's a bit of a cop out on their behalf, especially when we will learn the team conposition from the IIHF in a matter of days
    2/ I know most of the players on a personal level and have never heard an allegation about harassment of senior players and there are plenty - me included - who would defend the players and coaching staff who go out to represent us as opposed to the executive. Even those execs who also play for Team Ireland are treated with a different attitude.

    There are only two occasions that I can recall, when some criticism was handed out, firstly, when the U18 team included Willie's accolites who were there as a reward and not because of their accomplishments or skill level.
    Secondly there was a section who castigated two players who ran foul of local law enforcement, but equally there were those of us who defended them staunchly and believe in their innocence to this very day.

  18. #68
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    This is insane. Are we actually to believe a team of players will be put out there that doesn't have the mental toughness to be publicly named to a national team? Whether it is true or not, what an absolute joke of a statement for the IIHA to make. And to top it off with requests to attend fundraisers. The IIHA is actually saying come and provide financial support for those that do not want you to know who you are subsidising. It is an insult to the hockey community.

  19. #69
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    The IIHF is now showing the Ireland 'long list' of players ;

    http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/295/IHM2950IRL_32E_1_0.pdf

    Geoff

  20. #70
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    Team list as per IIHF site. They will not all be going

    15 ADAMS Christopher F R 1.78 / 5'10'' 82 / 181 25 DEC 1986 Belfast Ice Foxes
    23 ADAMS Stephen F R 1.77 / 5'10'' 74 / 163 13 JUL 1990 Solway Sharks
    17 BALMER Steven F R 1.72 / 5'8'' 75 / 165 23 JAN 1991 Streatham Redskins
    7 BICKERSTAFF Ross F R 1.80 / 5'11'' 83 / 183 1 SEP 1989 Belfast Spitfires
    25 BICKERSTAFF Scott GK L 1.83 / 6'0'' 68 / 150 13 NOV 1992 Wightlink Tigers
    5 CATHERWOOD Philip F R 1.70 / 5'7'' 65 / 143 2 FEB 1992 Castlereagh Spartans
    27 COOPER Stephen F R 1.73 / 5'8'' 75 / 165 30 OCT 1984 Ireland
    31 DEVINE Christopher GK L 1.69 / 5'7'' 65 / 143 15 NOV 1994 Belfast Giants
    10 DOOLEY Sean F L 1.80 / 5'11'' 89 / 196 16 JAN 1985 Ireland
    8 EWEN Steven F R 1.80 / 5'11'' 90 / 198 25 FEB 1980 Northern Ireland Prowlers
    14 HAMILL Stephen F R 1.73 / 5'8'' 76 / 168 26 DEC 1978 Ireland
    4 JACKSON-WYATT Adam F L 1.75 / 5'9'' 78 / 172 21 JUL 1990 Ireland
    13 KELLY Dean D R 1.81 / 5'11'' 67 / 148 25 MAY 1988 Dublin Rovers
    20 KELLY Kevin GK L 1.85 / 6'1'' 80 / 176 13 MAY 1978 Ireland
    2 KENNEDY Trevor D R 1.78 / 5'10'' 96 / 212 8 MAY 1979 Belfast Spitfires
    12 LARKIN Rian F R 1.73 / 5'8'' 64 / 141 30 AUG 1993 Belfast Giants
    16 LECKEY Robert D R 1.80 / 5'11'' 86 / 190 29 SEP 1979 Ireland
    6 MARTIN Gareth D R 1.73 / 5'8'' 85 / 187 3 OCT 1982 Ireland
    21 McCRAINOR Jason F L 1.75 / 5'9'' 74 / 163 18 SEP 1992 Belfast Giants
    11 McEVOY Niall D R 1.79 / 5'10'' 83 / 183 8 APR 1991 Ireland
    19 MORRISON David D R 1.60 / 5'3'' 75 / 165 2 APR 1980 Belfast Giants
    22 MORRISON Mark F R 1.73 / 5'8'' 70 / 154 10 JUL 1982 Belfast Giants
    9 O DRISCOLL Timothy D L 1.68 / 5'6'' 68 / 150 28 MAR 1980 Ireland
    3 PATIENCE Adam D L 1.93 / 6'4'' 87 / 192 21 APR 1992 Belfast Spitfires
    1 PEPPER Adam GK L 1.80 / 5'11'' 75 / 165 4 JUN 1991 Ireland
    28 PEPPER Mark F R 1.83 / 6'0'' 83 / 183 11 FEB 1986 Dublin Flyers
    33 PEPPER Sean GK L 1.83 / 6'0'' 89 / 196 26 SEP 1988 Ireland
    18 REDMOND Conor F R 1.75 / 5'9'' 63 / 139 29 MAR 1995 Swindon Wildcats
    24 ROBERTS Gareth F R 1.75 / 5'9'' 85 / 187 10 JAN 1986 Belfast Giants.

    And as for the team officials, it's basicaly just the Dundalk Bulls on tour...... John Crawley will be missed.
    Taking 5 Goaltenders would be madness.

    Function Name Citizenship Date of Birth

    General Manager: PEPPER James IRL 9 NOV 1957
    Head Coach: REDMOND Kenneth GBR 11 NOV 1968
    Assistant Coach: SCHISTAD Robert NOR 28 OCT 1966
    Assistant Coach: STEWART Robert CAN 5 FEB 1966
    Equipment Manager: GROBARCIK Roman SVK 5 JAN 1971
    Physiotherapist: GRANT Ivan IRL 31 DEC 1971
    Team Staff: SALLY Aeidamar IRL 11 OCT 1969

  21. #71
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinMc View Post
    . The decision not to release a roster straight away was made as some players had requested not to be named to avoid harassment which had happened in previous years. So as yet no date for a public roster.
    So they tell Kevin they are refraining from naming a team for fear they might be harrassed and then the team is named the very next day ????
    The IIHA are playing silly beggars with Kevin as far as I can see !!
    No player has admitted that they requested that their name be held back and I don't believe it for a moment.
    While my support for the team is undiminished I do feel they are leaving themselves open to charges of nepotism if they retain all 3 of the GM's sons in the team and a coach's son whos is barely 17 by a matter of days. While this might have been acceptable had the selection been made after rigorous and lengthy public trials.Because no one else was allowed to "audition" the process must be subject to a great deal more scrutiny as a consequence.
    As I said this is only a long list and there will be cuts, but it is unfortunate that the new coaching staff are already on the back foot, in what, God Forbid, may turn out to be our last skirmish.
    Last edited by Mick; 12-04-2012 at 12:24.

  22. #72
    IHF Member KevinMc's Avatar
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    Mick please leave me out of this. I asked a question like i said i would to try and help and posted the response on here. Since the team has already been selected i can't think of another reason why the release of the roster was not made.

  23. #73
    IHF Member MoNsToUr's Avatar
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    same as kevin said mick leave me out of this you should know that its not the GM's decision who is picked for the team and who is left out of the team {and in-case your wondering no I wasn't selected this year to represent Ireland}
    Boston Bruins Stanley Cup Champions 2011

  24. #74
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    "Mick please leave me out of this. I asked a question like i said i would to try and help and posted the response on here. Since the team has already been selected i can't think of another reason why the release of the roster was not made."

    Fine Kevin no problem, I am not trying to include you in anything. I did thank you for asking the question, and posting the reply and then went on to make the point that I felt you had been treated shamefully. As my thanks and concern are not appreciated I will not labour the point except to say your annoyance would be better directed elsewhere.

    "MoNsToUr

    same as kevin said mick leave me out of this you should know that its not the GM's decision who is picked for the team and who is left out of the team {and in-case your wondering no I wasn't selected this year to represent Ireland} "


    I would ask that you identify where I included you by name as I took the trouble to make no reference to your persona here. Having been GM, of course I know who selects the team, as I was extremely careful not to leave myself open to such accusations when my son was called up after exhaustive and open trials to play for team Ireland.
    I made it clear this was not a final selection in my post, said I would still support the team and only questioned the pool of players put up for consideration,as I am entitled to do after the shambles that was the selection process this year.I recognize that list is, at best, a diversion, and at worst, an insult to the supporters, as I know for a fact that players listed have asked not to be considered.
    Last edited by Mick; 11-04-2012 at 21:24.

  25. #75
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    Monique Scheier

    Monique (featured below) is a very good friend at a personal level and also a good friend to Ireland and all of the smaller nations in hockey. She visited us for the World Champioships in Dundalk some years ago, and again as IIHF representative at our last AGM where I hoped to renew our old acquaintance but was prevented from attending by the executive. It is great to see her get the recognition she deserves in this piece from www.iihf.com by MARTIN MERK


    Small nation challenges

    Luxembourg hopes to step up in 100-year anniversary
    09-04-12


    Picture:Lux. v Irl..jpg Luxembourg plays Ireland on home ice in Kockelscheuer at the 2010 IIHF World Championship Division III Group A. Photo: FHGL

    Surrounded by Belgium, France and Germany, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg is one of Europe’s smallest countries. Still, the nation of roughly more than half a million people is one of the oldest members of the International Ice Hockey Federation. This year it celebrates its 100-year anniversary.

    One of the most constant figures in Luxembourg ice hockey is Monique Scheier, who was elected into the IIHF Council in 2009 as one of two female members.

    Recently she chaired the tournament directorate at the 2012 IIHF Ice Hockey Women’s World Championship Division I Group A in Ventspils, Latvia.

    “We didn’t have so many problems and it was a good tournament. That made my work easy,” she says about her work in Latvia. “All teams were at the same level.”

    “Of course Canada and the U.S. are at another level in women’s hockey, maybe even Finland and Sweden. But the rest is coming closer. I think all teams improved.”

    Scheier has been involved in ice hockey for 40 years already. It all started in the town of Beaufort.

    “My husband was playing there at that time and I started as a scorekeeper,” she remembers.

    But more than a decade later it didn’t look good with the future for the sport in her country.

    “In 1988 there were no junior teams in Luxembourg so I started a team with five kids,” she says. “Now we have 200 youth players.”

    Her team was a family affair as the players included her two sons, two nephews and one of their friends. The setup was similar to her normal business life where she’s responsible for the administration in a family-run mechanical workshop.

    Since 1992 Scheier has been the General Secretary of the Luxembourgish Ice Hockey Federation. And at the same time she’s President of the strongest of the country’s four amateur clubs, Tornado Luxembourg, which plays in Division 3, the fourth-tier league of France. Two other teams play in a German regional league across the border. And an additional one joins them for the national championship.

    On top of that there are youth teams in each age category. A women’s team doesn’t exist. Girls play with boys’ teams, but there haven’t been enough players to form a women’s team yet.

    “I’m doing it as a volunteer. It’s a lot of work, but I love to do it,” Scheier says about her work in hockey. “But it’s not so easy in Luxembourg. But we try to get more teams and I think we will meet the IIHF’s minimum standards next year.”

    Ice hockey is seen as a random sport in the country. “It’s all about football. And then, basketball, handball, and then hockey,” she says. “So the federation has to make its best out of the possibilities.”

    And that’s easier said than done. The four senior teams and the youth teams share three ice rinks with other activities. Two of them are in Kockelscheuer where the bigger one with a capacity for 1,200 fans hosted two World Championships at Division III level. The third one in Beaufort got its roof for this season, ending the open-air hockey era in the north of Luxembourg.

    The national team mostly counts on home-grown talent also because 42 per cent of Luxembourg’s inhabitants are foreigners, of which many only stay for a few years. The strict naturalisation regulations in the country, which haven’t foreseen double-citizenships until recently, wouldn’t have made it easy anyway to use players with foreign roots.

    “There are young players coming up. And we are working again on our U18 program, but it will take some years to have it a good level,” Scheier says. “It’s our aim to be in the U18 World Championship program in a few years.”

    Luxembourg has been playing in the IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship program first time in 1992, then again in 2000 and since 2002 every year. Only two times did Luxembourg play in Division II, losing nine games while having a tie against Israel.

    In the junior programs Luxembourg only played once, with its U20 national team in 2003.

    This year’s national team will be led by Slovak coach Marian Gallo, who returns behind the bench for the first time since 2009 and after being assistant coach last year. He also coached Tornado Luxembourg this season.

    Luxembourg will enter the 2012 IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship Division III in Erzurum, Turkey, as fourth-seeded team. Only the tournament winner will be promoted.

    “It won’t be easy as we will miss some players,” Scheier says. “We have some teachers on our team and they can’t choose when to take vacation. But we will still have a quite good team and I hope it will manage to go up.”

    Most players come from one of the domestic clubs. Only few players leave for abroad, and mostly for study.

    But there’s one famous hockey personality with heritage in Luxembourg most readers know well: former NHL player and Team Canada coach Marc Habscheid.

    In 2005, a few months after winning silver at the World Championship in Vienna and days before leading Canada at the Spengler Cup in Switzerland, Habscheid visited the country his parents were born in. He met the national team and gave a practice lesson to juniors. Scheier gave him a jersey of the Luxembourg national team with his name on it as a souvenir.

    But Scheier knows that to boost hockey, the development needs to be done within its borders.

    “I want to improve the junior program in order to have youngsters joining the national team,” she says when asked about her wishes for the future of ice hockey in Luxembourg.

  26. #76
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    Based on the way Northern Irish players have been cast aside by the IIHA, I must say I am surprised at the number of Northern Irish players putting themselves up for consideration for Team ROI. I am not sure of the motivation, but I do find it bizzare. A couple of other names confuse me based on the way events were handled (or not handled) after last years tournament.

  27. #77
    IHF Member KevinMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    "Mick please leave me out of this. I asked a question like i said i would to try and help and posted the response on here. Since the team has already been selected i can't think of another reason why the release of the roster was not made."

    Fine Kevin no problem, I am not trying to include you in anything. I did thank you for asking the question, and posting the reply and then went on to make the point that I felt you had been treated shamefully. As my thanks and concern are not appreciated I will not labour the point except to say your annoyance would be better directed elsewhere.
    Sorry Mick, misread that, thought you was pressing for more information. I've been becoming more defensive in my posts lately, as you can see at the bottom of post#66. Please excuse me for jumping to conclusions. However, I will say that since the selection was made I can't see any other reason to hold off on releasing names so have no reason to believe it was anything other than the truth. Perhaps it was the two incidents you mentioned at the bottom of your reply that has raised concerns for future campaigns. But I do not want to speculate any further than that.

    RDP, there is no reason for players from the North of Ireland not to represent Ireland, anyone who has represented Ireland before will remain available, and as stated at the AGM a proposed amendment to the bylaws to guarentee equality for players from the North was submitted and we all await the IIHF vote on this.

    Just want to finish off by saying congrats to all selected and best of luck.

  28. #78
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    There is a huge reason Kevin. Team Ireland was previously an inclusive cross border team in which players from north and south represented their nation. Through their actions, the IIHA executive have determined Northern Ireland is not represented by the team incorrectly and inappropriately still referred to as Team Ireland. The fact of the matter is, and no matter what line of shit was fed by Willy and co to the players, Northern Irish players are no longer representing thier nation by togging out for this team because of the IIHA exec.

  29. #79
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    In defense of Team Ireland players.

    In defense of the IIHA -yes, you read that correctly, in defense of the IIHA,- the name on my passport, and as confirmed by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs, the name of our country is IRELAND.

    The Republic of Ireland is a name given to us mainly in Britain to differentiate between ourselves and Northern Ireland, but then again that is also the origin of that most hated of terms among Irish people -THE MAINLAND when they want to differentiate between Northern Ireland and the island that includes Scotland, Wales and England.

    All that having been said I think it is unfair to blame the players of northern origin for their decision, they would have to sit out two years and in all probability might not be selected to play for the UK.The IIHA would find it next to impossible to ice a team without resorting to Northern lads, and their absence had they shunned the call-up may very well have been the straw that broke the camal's back and resulted in the removal once and for all of this affliction that call themselves an executive.

    Turkeys however don't vote for Christmas, and it is understandable how these lads can still accept the slap in the face but make themselves available for national team selection. It must be difficult however for national pride, a never-say-die attitude and team spirit to survive in such conditions.

    To my mind it is the IIHA who must be blamed for timidly agreeing to this in the first place, and giving away the birthright of future generations to pull on the green jersey. This is the exact opposite of all the other sporting NGB that recognize the Good Friday Agreement and make allowances for dual citizens to decide where their sporting loyalties lie.

    All of this was predicted at the time of our acquiescence, Governments and other NGBs were lined up to support us, and the Court of Arbitration in Sport had handed down a decision on a Northern Football Players right to opt for the Football Association of Ireland thus establishing a precedent. All that was needed was the will to stand up for the rights of these players. Once again the invertibrate and bullying nature of this junta became apparent, as they decimated the regions, clubs and players here at home, and bent the knee to more serious opposition abroad.

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    Do I detect a chance that common sense might prevail and that we get back to having a combined Ireland and Northern Ireland team competing in the IHWC. I hope so as this is surely the best way forward for developing the sport in the area.

    Geoff

  31. #81
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    No Geoff there is no change in the situation at all. Because the status quo was that those lads have played for Team Ireland in previous championships, that right to do so again cannot be removed, it waould be tantamount to saying the IIHF were in error in allowing them play in the first place.
    The worry is that future talent, now too young to play at senior level, will be prohibited from " pulling on the green jersey" without sitting out the two years and paying the ITC OR opting to register with an association with a lousey track record of looking after both Northern and Southern players while at underage level.

  32. #82
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    Would this not help ?

    ...........as stated at the AGM a proposed amendment to the bylaws to guarentee equality for players from the North was submitted and we all await the IIHF vote on this.

    Geoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    No Geoff there is no change in the situation at all. Because the status quo was that those lads have played for Team Ireland in previous championships, that right to do so again cannot be removed, it waould be tantamount to saying the IIHF were in error in allowing them play in the first place.
    The worry is that future talent, now too young to play at senior level, will be prohibited from " pulling on the green jersey" without sitting out the two years and paying the ITC OR opting to register with an association with a lousey track record of looking after both Northern and Southern players while at underage level.

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    Would this not help ?

    ...........as stated at the AGM a proposed amendment to the bylaws to guarentee equality for players from the North was submitted and we all await the IIHF vote on this.

    Geoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    No Geoff there is no change in the situation at all. Because the status quo was that those lads have played for Team Ireland in previous championships, that right to do so again cannot be removed, it waould be tantamount to saying the IIHF were in error in allowing them play in the first place.
    The worry is that future talent, now too young to play at senior level, will be prohibited from " pulling on the green jersey" without sitting out the two years and paying the ITC OR opting to register with an association with a lousey track record of looking after both Northern and Southern players while at underage level.

  34. #84
    IHF Member Mick's Avatar
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    This is not the first time an attempt was made to block Northern players........

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffH View Post
    Would this not help ?

    ...........as stated at the AGM a proposed amendment to the bylaws to guarentee equality for players from the North was submitted and we all await the IIHF vote on this.

    Geoff
    .......it's just the first time we did not fight it.

    Geoff, this battle was fought, and won, a few years ago by a previous executive committee at IIHF Congress in Canada, when documentation was provided from among others the Irish Government who stated that they had never been approached to provide input to a discussion document being championed by the IIHF Legal Committee and that some of the case put forward by said committee was inaccurite. It was decided there that the situation would remain as it was with Northern players having the right to opt to play for Team Ireland without complication or hinderance. We are not the only case of this kind as Israel, Hong Kong, former Yugoslav Republics and possibly former Russian Federation Countries could find themselves in similar situations to a greater or lesser degree.

    When this subject was raised again by the IIHF Legal Committee, on the appointment of the then new Executive, a Department of the Irish Government, in a conversation with me, offered to have the Irish Ambassador in Switzerland call in person to the IIHF, to clarify the agreed correct interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement. This was at the same time as the case was being decided upon about the footballer mentioned above, and in that situation the Ambassador had been pressed into service, and, as a result, a legal precedent from the highest authority in sport, C.A.S., was also available to assist us argue our case. However the IIHA, for whatever reason, and despite being aware of all of this information, chose to meekly surrender the rights of future Northern ice hockey players with only a whimper of objection.

    A tag line on one posters comments states " You pay peanuts, and you get monkeys", I would suggest that in this case that is doing a disservice to the Executive's simian (monkey) cousins.

  35. #85
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    Team Ireland 1 - 0 Scottish League. Were you there Kevin ? A rare chance to see Team Ireland close to home.

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    Hey Mick, remember we had this debate before about the use of the term Ireland in both ice hockey and international politics. While the department of foreign affairs maybe happy to name the 26 counties Ireland as if the six occupied counties don't exist I personally think it's an insult and a partitionist approach. Before the Good Friday Agreement I think it was accurate to refer to the 26 as Ireland as the constitution also laid claim to all of the Island of Ireland, but with the signing of the Good Friday Agreement this claim was removed but everyone from the north was given the right to choose Irish citizenship. As it stands the Soverign nation of Ireland will only exist once the 6 and 26 are united, until then we have the Irish Republic and north. This is my opinon but I don't hink anyone should be called wrong for for having differing opinions on this. As everyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to an Irish Passport that has no reflection on the name of 26, 6, or 32 counties as everyone is born with the same right of citizenship. I don't think any Irish person in the North travelling across the border would say "I'm going to Ireland for the......." is simply not accurate as we are already in Ireland, we would say going "down south", "over the border", or to "the Free State".

    As for the naming of Team Ireland I do think it's accurate to call Team Irish Republic or Team ROI as on paper and in the eyes of the IIHF thats the soverign state it represents. However since everyone born on the Island of Ireland is entitled to irish citizenship a team of Irish players from both sides of the border is truely Irish and representative of the people of Island of Ireland therefore it is correct and more appropiate to call the team, Team Ireland. So while the change to M&A of the association may have corrected the error in the IIHF eyes the Good Friday Agreement will ensure that Team Ireland will always represent the people of the 32 counties.

    It is worth remembering that the complications only arise when Dual Nationals wish to represent Team Ireland as they hold both British and Irish Citizenship. The bylaws of the IIHF are there to protect the integrity of the game, not to cause problems for it's members and players and deny access to the game we all care about. If a player born was born in the north and choose only Irish Citizenship, registered with IIHA and held only and Irish passport they would have immediate access to team Ireland just like the southern players. It's just complicated because other nations will look at the North and ask why should British/Irish dual nationals represent the 26 counties without having shown any commitment to sport in that country. It's only when the Good Friday agreement is examined we see what it really means to be Irish ie from the 32 counties not just 26 it's obvious that the 2 year restrictions for the north are both harse and impractical. We would not want any nation milking a granny rule to further their team and reputation in the short term while the local game suffers and that is definately not what the Team Ireland and the association I am proud to be a member of is about.

    As for fighting the IIHF on the issue head on, I was totally on for this, I was angry and annoyed at being treated as a second class Irish citizen by people who know little about what its like to live here. But had the IIHA not accepted the amendments to the M&A of the association then everyone involved with the sport on the Island of Ireland would have suffered. The IIHF rules state that an association can only be a governing body of a soverign state, so had the change not took place I assume we would have been suspended from the IIHF therfore no Team Ireland and no League (if we had a rink) and no prospect of righting this wrong except through a long and costly courts process. Remember in soccer the Granny rule is a lot more open and players can exercise it without residency of that country, the IIHF is not FIFA, so the C.A.S. would have to look closer at this and the result might not have been as cut and dry as we think. By changing the M&As we are in a position to present our proposal for the recognition of the Good Friday Agreement, explain it and hope that common sense and goodwill will prevail. The IIHF has not ignored the Good Friday Agreement, they are just enforcing the bylaws of residency that every country has agreed, on the players that use the Good Friday Agreement to claim Irish Citizenship while also having British Citizenship. We all hope the proposal will be accepted, but if it is not then the IIHA will look to the C.A.S. and most recently the waiving of the two year rules for Liam Stewart to press the IIHF to a rethink. But if it does go that far it's fair to say that the IIHA and Ireland (all of it) might have lost the goodwill and support of some of the IIHF, who knows. But by far a mutually agreed amendment to the bylaws of without the courts is the best option so fingers crossed.

    Managed to make the practice match last night was good to see the players hit the ice again, was a good close game and could see the improvements as the match went on. Still going to be a tough test but hopefully this will be the last year with no league and next year the players will have more match experience. interesting to see the SNL Giants too, still concerned that having players register with IHNI will have a negative affect on Ireland as they would reguire ITCs should they wish to play in an Irish league. But we will have to see how things play out when we eventually get a league here.

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    Any player coming from Northern Ireland is not entitled to play for Team ROI, except for those that have played for Team Ireland in the past. In order to play for Team ROI, Northern Irish players will have to abide by the same eligibility rules as foriegn players. The IIHA has explained this on several occasions.

    The IIHF rules state that an association can only be a governing body of a soverign state, so had the change not took place I assume we would have been suspended from the IIHF therfore no Team Ireland and no League (if we had a rink) and no prospect of righting this wrong except through a long and costly courts process.
    The IIHF is allowing teams to break rules and still play, so it is not clear where the assumption is coming from. Team ROI have been breaking a number of rules for a couple of years (rink, league, etc) and are still playing in a Senior WC. We all heard from the IIHA that the M&A needed to be changed because we had to comply with the rules or else, but as has been demonstrated in the breaking of national elegibility rules and through the agreements reffered to by Mick on a number of occasions the rules are not absolute. Willy, Dean, & freinds just made a balls of it through inexperience, incopetance, and personal motives.

    still concerned that having players register with IHNI will have a negative affect on Ireland as they would reguire ITCs should they wish to play in an Irish league. But we will have to see how things play out when we eventually get a league here.
    Are you suggesting Northern Irish players, that have been turned aside by the IIHA and have access to rinks that fall under the juristiction of Ice Hockey UK, should sit and wait for a rink to be opened and recognised in Dublin rather than set up an organisation a play hockey? And again Northern Irish players will require ITCs to play in a ROI league in any event, as stated by the IIHA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post

    All that having been said I think it is unfair to blame the players of northern origin for their decision, they would have to sit out two years and in all probability might not be selected to play for the UK.The IIHA would find it next to impossible to ice a team without resorting to Northern lads, and their absence had they shunned the call-up may very well have been the straw that broke the camal's back and resulted in the removal once and for all of this affliction that call themselves an executive.

    Turkeys however don't vote for Christmas, and it is understandable how these lads can still accept the slap in the face but make themselves available for national team selection. It must be difficult however for national pride, a never-say-die attitude and team spirit to survive in such conditions.
    I wouldn't say I blame the players for making a bad descision to play for Team ROI. The bizzare factor comes from the passionate response during the IIHA explanation of their actions to the Northern Irish hockey community and the fact that the IIHA has abandoned the next generations of Northern Irish players. How do you play for an organisation that doesn't want to be associated with your younger brothers, cousins, kids, etc?

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