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Thread: 2014 IIHF World Div.IB Championship - Vilnius, Lithuania; 20th-26th.Apr

  1. #201
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drax View Post
    Yesterday I watched an episode of NCIS: LA where new American citizens recited the Oath of Allegiance. It literary says: "I hereby renounce under oath all allegiance to any foreign state." So, how is possible for say, Andy Sertich to accept Croatian citizenship and play for Croatia while still retaining his U.S. citizenship? Does it mean that for American citizens who get their citizenship by birth the clause about non-allegiance to foreign countries does not apply?
    The Oath of Allegiance only applies those taking up US citizenship and not Americans taking citizenship elsewhere. Even so, it is not the renouncement of your original citizenship, which the US does not enforce and permits you to keep anyway. It's simply a statement that says you will place your commitment to America ahead of any commitment required to your other nationality.

    For Americans seeking dual citizenship elsewhere, in the 1980s, the Supreme Court ruled that U.S. citizenship is a constitutional right that cannot be taken away from a citizen who does not intend to relinquish it. Therefore, such actions as naturalization in a foreign country, travel on a foreign passport, employment with a foreign government, and voting in a foreign election do not automatically jeopardize American citizenship.

    One of the interesting things I did find checking the above was this:

    Croatia generally allows citizens by descent to have dual citizenship and forbids it only in certain cases, but foreigners wanting to naturalize must renounce their old citizenship.
    Therefore, strictly speaking, these players must be renouncing their citizenship of the US and Canada.

    Graham.
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  2. #202
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    The entire concept of international sporting competition is based on competition between different nations, as opposed to clubs, or regions, or any other entity or polity. The best way to determine who 'belongs' with or to a nation is whether that person has citizenship in that nation.

    With that said, the problems of nations freely granting citizenship/passports to "mercenaries" to build their national teams is obvious - thus the IIHF's rules, and the rules of other governing bodies in other sports to try and address the problem.

    I absolutely feel, however, that someone who has held the citizenship of "Nation X" from birth, under the laws of "Nation X", and who has never competed for another nation in IIHF competition, should be entitled to play for "Nation X" regardless of whether he holds any other citizenship/passports.........and the IIHF obviously has felt that way as well.

    As for others who want to acquire the right to play for a nation in IIHF competition having not previously been a citizen of that nation, I am fine with increasing the waiting period from two to four years. I'd be fine with three years. What I am not fine with is the concept of allowing a player to play for a club that doesn't even compete in the national league of the nation that it is located in.....i.e., playing for a club in the KHL for Medvescak wouldn't qualify you for Croatia, or playing for Dinamo Minsk wouldn't qualify you for playing for Belarus, etc. etc.

  3. #203
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    problem with the KHL team is that the rules differ when it comes to foreign teams

    a foreign team should be allowed to have five imports just like the Russian teams

  4. #204
    IHF Member Snapshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sp3c View Post
    problem with the KHL team is that the rules differ when it comes to foreign teams

    a foreign team should be allowed to have five imports just like the Russian teams
    You are joking right ? In that case Medvescak and Donbass (and Astana to some extent) wouldn't play in KHL because they couldn't be able to ice competetive team.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    I absolutely feel, however, that someone who has held the citizenship of "Nation X" from birth, under the laws of "Nation X", and who has never competed for another nation in IIHF competition, should be entitled to play for "Nation X" regardless of whether he holds any other citizenship/passports.........and the IIHF obviously has felt that way as well.
    Not quite sure whether your point is that such a person should be entitled to play for the country in question with our without having actually played there. The IIHF stance on such cases is that the 2-year rule applies, which makes sense for me as I see "national" team competition much more as a comparison along the lines of countries' "hockey systems" than a comparison along the completely arbitrary lines of who is considered part of a "nation" - for whatever this means.

    For instance Brian Lebler holds Austrian citizenship since his birth as he was born here during his dad's pro days. Lebler sen. spent his entire career in AUT and also played for the NT and the family has Austrian ancestry. That seems sufficiently "national" to me. Still Lebler also has Canadian citizenship and except for probably his very early years (he might have skated in AUT as a pre schooler) grew up and learned his hockey in Canada. And that's why I don't think it would have made sense if he had been eligible to play for Austria without having played "in the country's system" for a certain time...which he did on turning pro.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapshot View Post
    You are joking right ? In that case Medvescak and Donbass (and Astana to some extent) wouldn't play in KHL because they couldn't be able to ice competetive team.
    Well, as much as I like Medvescak fans, that would be perfectly fair. Teams should be adopted to a certain international league based on the state of their current hockey not the amount of money they can invest in a hockey team. Hungary and Slovenia waited until their hockey got close to the level of Austria's, then they got the chance to play in the EBEL. Croatia just applied becuase they had money to create a team. Same with KHL.

    This is the reason why I didn't like the idea of Patriot Budapest, the now-defunct Hungarian MHL team. Our hockey wasn't at that level and it was basically a Slovak team with a few Hungarians playing in Hungary, it didn't help our hockey much.

  7. #207
    IHF Member Garethw87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sp3c View Post
    problem with the KHL team is that the rules differ when it comes to foreign teams

    a foreign team should be allowed to have five imports just like the Russian teams
    Quote Originally Posted by Rajna View Post
    Well, as much as I like Medvescak fans, that would be perfectly fair. Teams should be adopted to a certain international league based on the state of their current hockey not the amount of money they can invest in a hockey team. Hungary and Slovenia waited until their hockey got close to the level of Austria's, then they got the chance to play in the EBEL. Croatia just applied becuase they had money to create a team. Same with KHL.

    This is the reason why I didn't like the idea of Patriot Budapest, the now-defunct Hungarian MHL team. Our hockey wasn't at that level and it was basically a Slovak team with a few Hungarians playing in Hungary, it didn't help our hockey much.
    But the NHL, the best league in the world does perfectly fine without an restrictions? The Boston Canadians.. I mean Bruins don't mind how many foreign players are on their roster.

    I think it makes sense for the Non-Russian teams to have lesser import restrictions, for now at least anyway. They still have to ice X amount of national team players to be fair.
    Dinamo Riga, Manchester Storm

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garethw87 View Post
    But the NHL, the best league in the world does perfectly fine without an restrictions? The Boston Canadians.. I mean Bruins don't mind how many foreign players are on their roster.

    I think it makes sense for the Non-Russian teams to have lesser import restrictions, for now at least anyway. They still have to ice X amount of national team players to be fair.
    The NHL is different in a way because the North American countries have by far the most quality players in the world. In hockey, the restriction of import players generally means restriction of North American players, so it doesn't reaaly make sense to have restrictions in the NHL (until a Mexican team is admitted).

  9. #209
    IHF Member Snapshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajna View Post
    Well, as much as I like Medvescak fans, that would be perfectly fair. Teams should be adopted to a certain international league based on the state of their current hockey not the amount of money they can invest in a hockey team. Hungary and Slovenia waited until their hockey got close to the level of Austria's, then they got the chance to play in the EBEL. Croatia just applied becuase they had money to create a team. Same with KHL.
    I don't know how closely you followed Medvescak during their EBEL days, but even in EBEL Medvescak was built mainly of foreginers. Ok, they had little more cronuck players but that is only due to the fact that there are much more cronucks who are good enough for EBEL rather than KHL.

  10. #210
    IHF Member Garethw87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajna View Post
    so it doesn't reaaly make sense to have restrictions in the NHL (until a Mexican team is admitted).
    Good one :D
    Dinamo Riga, Manchester Storm

  11. #211
    IHF Member Snapshot's Avatar
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    http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/n...iew/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=8770&cHash=9f3b3fa088bdf8bf8fab73cf78fdc413

    Interview with Igor Jacmenjak...

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapshot View Post
    I don't know how closely you followed Medvescak during their EBEL days, but even in EBEL Medvescak was built mainly of foreginers. Ok, they had little more cronuck players but that is only due to the fact that there are much more cronucks who are good enough for EBEL rather than KHL.
    That was exactly my point. Medvescak shouldn't have been admitted to the EBEL as the level of Croatian hockey was nowhere near the level of Austrian hockey (or Slovenian or Hungarian, for that matter). And I say that even though I really liked the atmosphere of Medvescak game, nothing against the fans or the club, but this practice can ruin international hockey.

  13. #213
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Rajna, a lot of great posts in which I agree with you. EBEL and KHL have their own interests and they only turn to them. They are not interested in the level of hockey in any country, they are interested only to club/team who enters the league. So this is a completely different story, and it is much more connected with business.

    And after all, Croatia and Medvescak as a member of EBEL and KHL take the opportunity to select good players (Croats from diaspora and 3 dual players), and everything is done according to the rules, EVERYTHING.

    Some people don't like this because they feel that this kind of national team strengthening does not show the real level of hockey in this country, or domestic league. But once again we return to the question: Is the team of Israel/ or Italy/ represents the quality of their domestic league, or their hockey school?
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  14. #214
    IHF Member Snapshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BASSA View Post
    Rajna, a lot of great posts in which I agree with you. EBEL and KHL have their own interests and they only turn to them. They are not interested in the level of hockey in any country, they are interested only to club/team who enters the league. So this is a completely different story, and it is much more connected with business.

    And after all, Croatia and Medvescak as a member of EBEL and KHL take the opportunity to select good players (Croats from diaspora and 3 dual players), and everything is done according to the rules, EVERYTHING.

    Some people don't like this because they feel that this kind of national team strengthening does not show the real level of hockey in this country, or domestic league. But once again we return to the question: Is the team of Israel/ or Italy/ represents the quality of their domestic league, or their hockey school?

    You made some very good points. And I need to add something else. Many fans, when talking about cronucks and foreginers in Croatian NT, are pointing out examples of Italy and Netherlands and how their hockey is still on same level despite they used (and Italy still doing it) their canadians for years. And those "worried" fans didn't ask themselves would hockey still exist in Italy and/or Netherlands if not for the period when they used canadians and made better results than today. Maybe Italy reaching quarterfinals for few times in 90-s made more than few kids choosing hockey over football.

  15. #215
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    Sure. Italian child is going to disregard the world cups Italy won in 1982 and 2006 in football where Italian squad was composed od Italians and choose hockey because of some quarterfinals where Canadians wore Italian jerseys. Een the Olympic games held in Torino in 2006. were not enough to keep even semiprofessional hockey team in the city.

  16. #216
    IHF Member Snapshot's Avatar
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    And France built 100 new rinks and have 30 potential first-rounders just because they quit on canadians in their team.

    Medal always has two sides...

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drax View Post
    Sure. Italian child is going to disregard the world cups Italy won in 1982 and 2006 in football where Italian squad was composed od Italians and choose hockey because of some quarterfinals where Canadians wore Italian jerseys. Een the Olympic games held in Torino in 2006. were not enough to keep even semiprofessional hockey team in the city.
    That is true, but it was a little different as the fans never really got behind Italy outside of Südtirol. In Croatia, Medvescak was well-marketed and it has more and more fans, probably resulting in more children taking up hockey (even though it won't be able to match the numbers soccer, basketball, handball or even water polo has).

  18. #218
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    Why would they if they are satisfied with the system they have?

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapshot View Post
    No way Croatia will finish 2nd, although I believe that we will stay in this group. The biggest problem for our team is lack of goalie who is capable to play at this level. Sure, Tomljenovic has potential, but he played exactly two games (not even for full 60 minutes) for Zvolen's farm team. Vasiljević played much more in EIPHL, but he is not on same level with Tomljenovic in terms of quality.

    Our federation still try to re-negotiate passport for Sinisa Martinovic, who played for Croatia long time ago, but he quit on our passport in order not to count as foreginer in his german club(s).

    With Ouzas in the net I am sure we would fight for one of the first three places, but with questionable goaltending staying in this Division will be success.
    Well it all happened and the program in croatia is better all around

  20. #220
    IHF Member Snapshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plissken View Post
    Well it all happened and the program in croatia is better all around
    What program ?

    Without cronucks we are doomed in D1B

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