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Thread: Jetlag will be death of Finland and Czechs

  1. #1
    Banned hockeynomad's Avatar
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    Jetlag will be death of Finland and Czechs

    The problem with having games on two continents is that it all ends on one continent.

    The Czechs arrived midnight Toronto time, a 12 hour flight. Less and I believe a six hour time differential. This fact is very major and the adjustment and fatigue will be a major factor and perhaps especially for major game the semi finals will definitely affect both european teams.

    edit 11 Sep: Hockeynomad has asked me to edit the title. The original title read: "Jetlag wil be the death of Finland and Czechs"
    Dancan
    Last edited by Karsten; 12-09-2004 at 00:58.

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    IHF Member mpdman's Avatar
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    This is a minor inconvenience when compared to playing in front of hostile fans.

    Let's face it, this tourney is heavily weighted towards the NA teams.

    I wanna win, so my response is, sucks to be them.....

  3. #3
    IHF Member castorpollux's Avatar
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    We are used to the midnight sun.
    So we stay up all nights during summertime anyways :)

    Plus,

    it's not over until the fat lady whistles.
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    IHF Member NyQuil's Avatar
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    I've said before that i thought the two-continent format was dumb, because it's unfair to Slovakia and Russia.

    All the teams should have played in North America.

    The next World Cup could be held entirely in Europe.

    Anyway, there are always excuses associated with every tournament. Travel, fans, ice, schedule, referees, roster selection, format, etc. etc.

    The one thing I will say from large amounts of experience is that it's easier going to North America than going to Europe.

    From Europe to N.A., you leave very early in the morning (Europe time) and arrive in the evening, having to stay up late that evening (North America time). I'd say one day of jet lag at most.

    From N.A. to Europe, you leave in the afternoon or at night (N.A. time), travel all night (who can sleep on a plane?), and arrive in the morning Europe time. You have to stay up an entire day, which is largely impossible, and then you start waking up at 03:00 or 04:00 in the morning.

    Sometimes it's taken me 3 or 4 days to adjust going this way.
    Last edited by NyQuil; 10-09-2004 at 21:08.
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    IHF Member Skratch's Avatar
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    Dam' right, Nyquill!
    WCH is a descendent of Canada Cup and has to be treated as such. Seven world's best teams; round robin + (not necessarily...) playoff decision of any format; playing in Canada. Period.
    The current layout is just improved Salt Lake scenario to make the final to be US vs Canada (group division, jet lag etc.)

    A hockey fan.

  6. #6
    Banned hockeynomad's Avatar
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    Either make tournament on one continent or the other.

    Having 2 to three day rest before semi-final and final games is ludricrous.

  7. #7
    IHF Member NyQuil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeynomad
    Either make tournament on one continent or the other.

    Having 2 to three day rest before semi-final and final games is ludricrous.
    It was an idea to try and expose the tournament more to European fans but it backfired and now is nothing more than an excuse for European-based teams.

    I don't like it any more than you do.
    "Maybe it wasn't talent the Lord gave me, maybe it was the passion..." - Wayne Gretzky

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    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    Jet lag big deal is not. Team Finland proved it just. There is no such thing as trying to play... play, or play not.
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    IHF Member Marc M's Avatar
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    Finland overcame Jetlag as they overcame team USA tonight.:claphands

    The current layout is just improved Salt Lake scenario to make the final to be US vs Canada (group division, jet lag etc.)
    I probably risk sounding overly senstitive on this, yet the IIHF WHC is always in Europe, and all of Canada's players (excepting Heward) are faced every year with the "jet lag" factor.
    Now, some of the European teams also parachute in NHL players freshly eliminated from Stanley Cup play, so this no longer affects just the N.A. players.
    The group division, with Canada and the USA in the same pool was just as likely to obviate a final matchup as it was to 'create' a final with these two teams.
    They (Can. USA) could easily have met and eliminated one or the other in the quarter finals.
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    Banned hockeynomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M
    I probably risk sounding overly senstitive on this, yet the IIHF WHC is always in Europe, and all of Canada's players (excepting Heward) are faced every year with the "jet lag" factor.
    Bon mots, Marc,

    NA teams do suffer from jetlag every year in Europe but at the start of tournament.

    Here, an entire team is airlifted just prior to crucial semi-final game.

  11. #11
    IHF Member NyQuil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeynomad
    Here, an entire team is airlifted just prior to crucial semi-final game.
    Yeah, it was stupid to allow European fans a chance to see their teams play.

    In the end, all it created was a bunch of excuses.
    "Maybe it wasn't talent the Lord gave me, maybe it was the passion..." - Wayne Gretzky

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    IHF Member mpdman's Avatar
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    Jetlag didn't seem to affect the Finns last night, so any Czech excuse in that regard should be null and void.

    What I want to know is, what time zone did the Yanks think they were in last night?.....

    Seeya boys, I'm off to the ACC to cheer the lads on.


    GO LUON GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Dear Canadians, please get serious, you know perfectly well that the Canadian team arrives in Europe well ahead (around one week) of the World Championships. Since it only takes about 3 days to adapt to the kind of jet lag we're talking about (NA-Europe), the jet lag factor doesn't count when Canada plays in the World Championship. It does count for the players who arrive late, but all the big teams add a few players into the tournament.

    Apparently, the jet lag didn't affect Team Finland when you look at the final result (and the final period), but maybe Finland is a much stronger team than the aging Team USA?

    But this doesn't change the fact that the jet-lag factor is a perfectly legitimate concern. As it has been claimed may times on these pages, the format of the tournament is heavily NA biased, and regrettably that deflates the value of the tournament.

  14. #14
    IHF Member NyQuil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancan

    But this doesn't change the fact that the jet-lag factor is a perfectly legitimate concern. As it has been claimed may times on these pages, the format of the tournament is heavily NA biased, and regrettably that deflates the value of the tournament.
    Just as many of the concerns that Canadians have raised about the World Championships heavily favor European teams, and deflates the value of that tournament as well. We've been going over this again and again.

    "World" Championships is a European tournament, "World" Cup is a North American tournament.

    Unfamiliarity with the officiating and rules, with the size of the rink, the lack of home ice, etc. etc. etc. are factors in both cases.

    It's a shame that the jet lag has become an added factor for the World Cup, when in fact it was probably introduced in order to mitigate another factor, namely allowing European teams to play at home for some of the tournament.

    Most Canadians agree that the entire tournament should have been held in Canada and/or the US.
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    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NyQuil
    Just as many of the concerns that Canadians have raised about the World Championships heavily favor European teams, and deflates the value of that tournament as well. We've been going over this again and again.

    "World" Championships is a European tournament, "World" Cup is a North American tournament.

    Unfamiliarity with the officiating and rules, with the size of the rink, the lack of home ice, etc. etc. etc. are factors in both cases.
    NQ, I can't argue with that because it describes pretty precisely how NA's feel about the WCs. But you also got to understand how most Europeans feel about the Canada Cup...sorry, the World Cup :002: Our Finn members are pretty excited right now. I understand them for the very reason that Finland hasn't won a major tournament for almost ten years. But I do remember very well how the Finns reacted when the won the World Championship in 1995.

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    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    Well, that was the first time we won something... ever.

    Now, we have won something that's finally comparable with it. (And yes, I'm talking about the game against USA, not the World Cup.)
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    IHF Member EveB's Avatar
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    Call me stupid, ignorant or anything, but if we finish 2nd in this World Cup I'll continue to consider the '95 gold medal our biggest hockey achievement :smart:

    Sure here's awful hype (might say propaganda) in tv & media about this best vs best World Cup and it's said time after time how this semi-final victory was the best thing ever happened to Lions.. blaa blaa. And how good success in World Championships is nothing compared to this one game - which wouldn't be said had we just been succesful in WC last years.

    I think this media is just preparing people to lose the final - kind of comforting the masses beforehand - "don't be disappointed when we lose this is a victory itself.." Kinda pathetic. Almost like Swedish media talking about Tre Kronor's "moralic" victory in European Group - I bet Swedish fans gloat on that "moralic victory"..

    Hmm. To say something on-topic today - jet lag sucks in this tournament and of course affected both Finns and Czechs, but I sure am happy to have seen some of the games during the day light. Of course would be better & more fair for the teams if the tournament was all played on one continent - hope that's what they'll do next time.


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    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    That Championships win in 95... a few years back, when I was younger, I thought it was a big thing. Back in 95 itself, when I was no taller than a foam extinguisher, it felt the biggest thing of them all.

    Now, however, my views have changed a little, especially if we look a bit of backrounds to that year's champs tournament...

    No team had NHL'ers, we better keep that in mind. And I don't think that too many is going to argue when I say that apart from few exceptions, the North American League is going to get the most skilled players sooner or later.

    Champs -95 were played with teams gathered from European Leagues & NA University teams. It's a great boost for my suggestion that the Finns do have the best player material on this side of the pool.

    But, so are EHT champ titles. And as you know, we have quite a bunch of those.

    Of course, multiple Finnish players playing in NHL have already proved that Finns do have material on that side of the pool who are able to compete too... but we've missed the big proof. The ultimate nail that shows the world we can be considered a force, no matter is it NHL or domestic European leagues.

    This is it. So there goes.
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    IHF Member EveB's Avatar
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    So this all "ooh how big this 2nd place will be" -thing is because we have this need to prove ourselves especially to North Americans. :023:


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    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    Stick it up to somewhere, Eve... and don't you dare to mention 2nd places yet!

    Like they said in WCH04.com, "Finns seem to enjoy playing as the seemingly weaker team. But if they keep it up like this, they may have to shake that underdog label sooner than anyone can expect."
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  21. #21
    IHF Member NyQuil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB
    So this all "ooh how big this 2nd place will be" -thing is because we have this need to prove ourselves especially to North Americans. :023:
    Well, despite the lack of huge results in major tournaments, Finland is regarded well in Canada, as a "small" country in hockey which does not have the same kind of resources and population as a Russia or Sweden or Canada or the US.

    However, their style of play and heart of the their players is never denied, and oddly enough what was most often spoken about the team was the lack of a quality goaltender.

    Now Finland has a ton of quality goaltenders, including the magnificent Kiprusoff, and Sweden's performance can at least be partly attributed to their problems developing a key player at that position.

    I'd picked three teams as favorites before the tournament: Canada, Finland and Sweden, with Finland largely on the strength of Kiprusoff and the confidence the team would have with him in net.

    The Czechs are enigmatic but they are one of the three teams that have knocked Canada out of best-on-best tournaments and always deserve respect because of it. Basically I didn't pick the Czechs because what kind of predictor picks 4 teams out of 8 (even 3 is kinda cheap).

    The Czechs are due for a good performance and I had accurately judged that their early performances in this tournament were of little consequence because of the format of the tournament, and they knew this to be so.

    So, from my perspective, the four teams that were semi-finalists were not surprises at all. The only surprise to me perhaps was the margin of victory of the Czechs over the Swedes.

    Finland has skill players who aren't afraid to do whatever it takes to win, whether that includes hitting, a little brawling, or a little finesse. Teams who can play the game on all those levels can be tough to beat.

    So, my long rambling message can be basically summed up as: I think north Americans have respect for Finnish hockey, and it really is about time that they've reached a final of this magnitude.
    "Maybe it wasn't talent the Lord gave me, maybe it was the passion..." - Wayne Gretzky

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    Banned hockeynomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB
    Call me stupid, ignorant or anything, but if we finish 2nd in this World Cup I'll continue to consider the '95 gold medal our biggest hockey achievement

    Remember the circumstances of that 1995 victory. It was during the NHL lockout when Canada and I'm not sure but other NHL players of other countries did not attend. The World Championship victories are very tainted especially that year.

    On that be very proud of what Finland has accomplished thus far, don't count them out. Its not yet .....Finnished.

    Congrats, Finns don't celebrate too hard. :yelclap: :653: :bowdown: There's one more game to go. :drinker-g :devileek: :013:

  23. #23
    IHF Member EveB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeynomad
    Remember the circumstances of that 1995 victory. It was during the NHL lockout when Canada and I'm not sure but other NHL players of other countries did not attend. The World Championship victories are very tainted especially that year.
    Sure I remember.. But it was the same situation (NHL lockout) for every team. No too many nhl'ers for Finland either.


    Anyway, I was just speaking about the greatest achievement in my very own personal opinion - not how I think the World or North America will or should see it ;). After reading some Finnish hockey discussion I see I'm definitely not alone - quite a many seem to agree '95 WC and/or '98 OC being bigger than reaching the finals in '04 WCH. Of course if this ends as we all would like to see it ending (Fin victory, right?) there's no doubt it'd be the biggest.


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  24. #24
    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB
    Sure I remember.. But it was the same situation (NHL lockout) for every team. No too many nhl'ers for Finland either.
    Back then, we really didn't even have too many. Hardly a handful. I think it really was this win that truly opened the doors. (So in that case perhaps it really was a big win).

    Quote Originally Posted by EveB
    quite a many seem to agree '95 WC and/or '98 OC being bigger than reaching the finals in '04 WCH.
    I can see their points, I don't deny that, but I still have to argue with the fact that if you consider 95 WC big, one still could consider the multiple EHT wins as big.

    Olympic bronze in Nagano... I guess what makes that a big win is the team Finns faced in the medal game and defeated. If team Finland loses the WCH2004 final, well... perhaps this bronze truly remains as the greatest single achievement... despite the fact we conquered the second place in this tournament.
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  25. #25
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Laho, the fact that Finland won the world championship in 1995 for the first time ever, makes it Finland's biggest achievement so far. No doubt about that, at least from a neutral observer's perspective. This result of '95 will be surpassed if Finland wins the WCH, and for four reasons:

    1. the --in my mind wrong --belief that WCH is a best-vs-best tournament (apart from USA and Canada, the European teams participating in the WC are generally better knitted than in the WCH, therefore the term best-vs-best is dubious *)
    2. The WCH is played much less frequently than the WC
    3. the WCH rules are biased against Finland
    4. and not least, the media have a short memory

    *) this, I would like to add, just makes Canada's achievements in the WC in the past two years so much bigger.

    btw, the EHT is grossly underestimated. What Finland has done, winning 6 out of 7 EHT's, is outstanding.

  26. #26
    IHF Member NyQuil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancan
    1. the --in my mind wrong --belief that WCH is a best-vs-best tournament (apart from USA and Canada, the European teams participating in the WC are generally better knitted than in the WCH, therefore the term best-vs-best is dubious *)
    Are you suggesting that not having access to all of your best players is an asset in bringing together a team?

    Or that the short time period of the World Cup of Hockey doesn't allow European teams the extra time they need to prepare properly?
    "Maybe it wasn't talent the Lord gave me, maybe it was the passion..." - Wayne Gretzky

  27. #27
    IHF Member NyQuil's Avatar
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    If the Czechs had jetlag you didn't notice it on the ice. They were blazing around. :drinker-g :drinker-g
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  28. #28
    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    If looked at what the -95 title did to Finnish hockey, caused the final breakthrough of the Finnish players to NHL... and stabilized the position of Finns as one of the hockey superpowers, it may be true that it can be called the greatest achievement.

    But there are things that argue for this as well.

    Aww, heck, I guess we'll have to wait 'til Tuesday and see. The fans of Canada shouldn't take the victory for granted. In the semi game, they didn't cruise it through with a clean overpowering game. This tells us that the Finns stand a chance. They're definitely still not the favorites... but I wouldn't cork that bottle of champagne yet.
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    IHF Member mpdman's Avatar
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    I think this jetlag argument has been forever put to rest thanks to the past two games.

    Which teams looked more jetlagged to you? Finland and Czech, or USA and Canada?

    I don't think Canada won a race for the puck, or a one on one battle along the boards all night.

    How'bout this for a time compromise? Play the entire tourney in St. Johns, Newfieland? Wouldn't that be a blast?!? :653:

  30. #30
    IHF Member EveB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpdman
    I think this jetlag argument has been forever put to rest thanks to the past two games.

    Which teams looked more jetlagged to you? Finland and Czech, or USA and Canada?
    Hehe,

    I just love this jetlag thing, since it let's me imagine that without it the results would have been FIN - USA 5-0 and CAN - CZE 0-5 :devileek:


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  31. #31
    Banned hockeynomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB
    Sure here's awful hype (might say propaganda) in tv & media about this best vs best World Cup and it's said time after time how this semi-final victory was the best thing ever happened to Lions.. blaa blaa. And how good success in World Championships is nothing compared to this one game - which wouldn't be said had we just been succesful in WC last years.
    The real "propaganda is that espoused by the IIHF in its characterization of World Championships and World Champion. :stupid: 50 to 60 top players not playing no longer constitutes the top tournament and IIHF hasn't figured it out.

    World Cup is tops because it does have all best players, Russia excluded. The real problem here is that it is a young tournament with no tradition, yet.

  32. #32
    IHF Member castorpollux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpdman
    I think this jetlag argument has been forever put to rest thanks to the past two games.

    Which teams looked more jetlagged to you? Finland and Czech, or USA and Canada?

    I don't think Canada won a race for the puck, or a one on one battle along the boards all night.

    How'bout this for a time compromise? Play the entire tourney in St. Johns, Newfieland? Wouldn't that be a blast?!? :653:

    You know,

    maybe the Team CAN should've taken a quick back-and-forth flight to Alaska or something?

    Just to get the jetlag :)

    Seriously, I hope tonight's game will be tough but fair and entertaining.
    A horribile Haccapaelitorum agmine libera nos, Domine

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