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Thread: NCAA vs. CIS games (& other odd matchups)

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    NCAA vs. CIS games (& other odd matchups)

    NCAA Division I teams (i.e., U.S. top-level university teams) historically have dominated CIS (i.e., Canadian top-level university teams) teams when they play friendly matches.

    The latest example is the University of North Dakota's 9-3 win over the University of Manitoba the other day.

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    IHF Member wachoo's Avatar
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    How do you explain that ?

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    IHF Member Tokyo Bucks's Avatar
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    By law, NCAA schools can offer athletic scholarships, CIS schools can't. So, if someone wants to pursue both hockey and academics, and is a skilled enough hockey player, he can get the education for free by getting an athletic scholarship offer from NCAA schools. So NCAA schools tend to attract more highly skilled hockey players. It's just better economics for the student-athletes if they can get a similar education without paying for it.

    There might also be a self perpetuating loop where NHL scouts pay attention to NCAA players, so student-athletes with NHL ambitions tend to get attracted to NCAA? (Though some teams do occasionally draft players out of very unlikely leagues where you didn't know they did scouting. Has any CIS player been drafted in recent decades?)

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    To further Tokyo Bucks's explanation, CIS teams tend to attract players who have already played Major Junior or Junior A, and who were not stars at that level, whereas NCAA Division I teams tend to attract talent that is on par with Canadian Major Junior talent - meaning that NCAA teams will of course have some average players for that level, but also plenty of star players for that level.

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    IHF Prospect putting on the foil's Avatar
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    Just a little more info about CIS- players with Major Junior get for each full season played in CHL= a year of school paid for(tution and books). So a 4 year CHL player can get 4 years of University or College paid for. Also, these games are exibition games so both teams are possibly not feilding their top players. They are looking at possible walk on players and players trying to make the squads.

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    True, but in the exhibition games, the NCAA teams are just as likely to be testing marginal players as well. From what I've seen, both teams either use their starters, or both use their reserves.

    NCAA teams just tend to beat the CIS teams. I can't remember the last time a CIS team won one of the games against an NCAA team. My guess is that if any CIS team would do it, it would be the University of Alberta Golden Bears.

    I'm sure somebody here can dig up a score or two.

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    What I'd really love to see are exhibition games between NCAA Division I and Major Junior teams. I cannot find anything to indicate any such games have ever taken place.

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    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    What I'd really love to see are exhibition games between NCAA Division I and Major Junior teams. I cannot find anything to indicate any such games have ever taken place.
    Or NCAA Division III (non-scholarship) against CIS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber
    NCAA Division I teams tend to attract talent that is on par with Canadian Major Junior talent - meaning that NCAA teams will of course have some average players for that level, but also plenty of star players for that level.
    It should also be pointed out that NHL teams scout the the USHL and NAHL and those leagues are primarily geared towards getting their players NCAA scholarships. So you have players who were drafted, but then chose to take a year or two in university. As we know, US junior hockey is on a big upswing at the moment and I would say that the USHL has closed the gap on CHL over the past years, still a different level, but much closer than before, and those players are filtering into the NCAA ranks.
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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Absolutely....the USHL, and the NAHL as well for that matter, are legitimate 'Junior A' hockey leagues, and not that far behind Major Junior and NCAA Division I teams in terms of level of play.
    Last edited by Marc Brunengraber; 28-11-2009 at 22:31.

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    RMC and West Point have an annual game that alternates from one location to the other.
    The games are often close (one of the smallest Canadian universities vs one of the strong US teams) though West Point usually does end up winning (though RMC owned the games back until 1940 or so)

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Army is not that strong an NCAA team.

    Any idea, Steigs, if any Major Junior teams have had exhibition games against NCAA Division I teams? I cannot find a singler example.

    I think a matchup of University of North Dakota vs. Vancouver Giants, for example, would be great to watch.

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    IHF Member fan75's Avatar
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    If there were any, they weren't in the last 15 years.

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    NCAA and CHL run such different schedules, I don't think there'll ever be much chance of matching them up.
    RMC as a low-end UOA squad vs Army (wherever they end up) is the only regular matchup that I'm aware of, and basically school population trumps Canadianism, at least recently, as far as who'll have the stronger team (RMC = roughly 1000 students total, Army = roughly 15000 or more?)

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    IHF Member nep401's Avatar
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    By the way which is higher level, CIS or NCAA Division III?
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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    On the whole (and this is guesswork on my part), I'd say CIS.

    Certainly (and this is not guesswork), the top couple of CIS teams are better than the whole of NCAA Division III. However, the top 5 or 6 NCAA Division III teams could compete decently against any CIS team and even most NCAA Division I / Major Junior teams.

    Middlebury is a prime example, as is SUNY-Plattsburgh....both are Division III teams that have played Division I teams in the past. Plattsburgh, years ago, actually beat Clarkson once. Both have competed against the U.S. National Junior team (U-18).

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    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Just want to say that this is a damn interesting thread on a rare topic. Thanks for bringing it up, Marc B.

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    This from armyhockeyfan.com

    SIGNIFICANT PAST HEADLINES.....
    1-11-07: It's Official - RMC GAME CANCELLED!...
    The annual RMC-Army game has officially been cancelled after many attempts at salvaging the game. The historic rivalry has come to an end. The Army ticket office will be offering ticket exchanges to other sporting events for pre-purchased tickets to the Feb. 10th game scheduled to be played at Tate Rink.
    1-6-07: Army-RMC Game Off? Say It Ain't So...
    According to an article published on Dec. 27th in the Middletown, NY, Times Herald Record newspaper the annual RMC/Army hockey game, considered the oldest continuous rivalry in college sports, is in real danger of being called off, perhaps permanently. Coach Brian Riley told the newspaper that the game scheduled for Feb. 10th at West Point will not be played, RMC has league games against Toronto and Ryerson scheduled for the weekend of Feb. 9th and 10th. Apparently the long time RMC practice of dressing non traditional players (Canadian military players, not actual RMC cadets) for the game has reached a breaking point. Former RMC coach Danny McLeod was quoted as saying "This, I think we had to 'fess up to...". McLeod also stated the RMC commandant was not aware of the practice and had taken steps to correct it. Riley was quoted as saying "Bottom line, the schedule has been made for ten years, the whole matter has come to a head. It's just a difference in philosophy - in my eyes it's not cadet vs. cadet anymore. It's disappointing, but who knows? We'll get together to see if we can iron some things out." Former Army hockey coach Jack Riley has been named to a committee along with McLeod that will attempt to save the game. A letter has been sent from the RMC Commandant to the West Point Superintendant requesting a meeting to attempt to resolve the situation. The RMC-Army game is always a sell out at Tate Rink. Lets hope your RMC tickets don't become a ticket to a game never played.
    ......damn. I was there a couple years ago when Army won at RMC by 5 or 6 goals, the atmosphere was great. I'm really disappointed at this, especially because this will be the only real sport where the two colleges don't compete. Every year there's a weekend (alternating from year to year between teh two campuses) where all the sports and shooting competition teams get together to see who has the best volleyball, basketball, shooting, hockye, etc teams.
    Now without hockey, it'll become much less meaningful.
    Adieu, longest-lasting hockey rivalry (at any level).

  18. #18
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    I've been part of a similar discussion on another site and wanted to add this posting from a guy who knows CIS hockey (Edmonton long time Broadcaster for the U of A Golden Bears and Oilers) and was responding to others who were implying that any NCAA team will beat top level CIS teams. It's a really interesting response and from what I've seen, of value to this thread.

    That's 8 wins 4 losses FOR the CIS Bears by the way. Moreover, the game they lost where the captain Gavin McLeod was not there on the Michigan roadtrip was for academic reasons. Another huge difference between NCAA and CIS.

    Of note: the U of A Golden Bears goalie Aaron Sorochan (CIS All-Star) was the back up for the NHL Edmonton Oilers the other night when one of the Oiler starters got sick suddenly and they couldn't get the AHL goalie up fast enough. To me that says a lot about the quality of the top level CIS players and from what I've heard, he's going pro after his university graduation.







    CIS vs. NCAA

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Alberta is 8-4 vs. NCAA teams since the mid 1990's.
    They have played one game in Edmonton at Clare Drake Arena, 10 have been on the road, and one game has been a neutral site game.
    The Golden Bears beat North Dakota in Grand Forks, in 1997, a year the Fighting Sioux won the National title.
    Alberta's last trip Stateside was in 2005-06.
    The Golden Bears played three games in three nights, which is typical of most CIS School invites' to the U.S.
    They lost 4-3 against then #1 Minnesota and played without 25 minute a night D-Man and Captain Gavin McLeod. Alberta then beat Minnesota State (Mankato) 5-0, and followed that up with a 2-1 victory over St. Cloud State.
    After Denver won the NCAA title in 2005 I had George Gwozdecky on afternoon drive show in Edmonton, and offered him $50,000 (I was still Alberta's SID at the time as well) to come to Edmonton and play the Bears at Rexall Place.
    Given that we had 10,500 at $27.00 a pop for the University Cup final two weeks earlier, I was confident we could easily cover our costs, especially given that it was the year of the lock-out.
    Gwozdecky declined.
    The U. of A. has spent the last five years trying to bring two U.S. Schools into Edmonton to play the Bears and Saskatchewan in a tournament.
    U.S. schools are not biting.
    Why do you think that is the case?

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Thanks, Karsten....I think it's interesting as well.

    As for U. Alberta, they are traditionally the very top CIS team by a wide margin. See my post from 10/13/2007 in this thread where I acknowledge that. After reading your post, I did a little research......U. Alberta is, to my knowledge, the ONLY CIS team that has had ANY kind of success against NCAA Division I competition.

    Any idea if a Major Junior team has ever had an exhibition against a CIS team?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    NCAA and CHL run such different schedules, I don't think there'll ever be much chance of matching them up.
    RMC as a low-end UOA squad vs Army (wherever they end up) is the only regular matchup that I'm aware of, and basically school population trumps Canadianism, at least recently, as far as who'll have the stronger team (RMC = roughly 1000 students total, Army = roughly 15000 or more?)
    I don't think school population has anything to do with it. I don't know how RMC works, but that would only matter if Army was a club team. It's an NCAA varsity team though so players get recruited on scholarship, they don't come from the regular student body.

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Helix- View Post
    I don't think school population has anything to do with it. I don't know how RMC works, but that would only matter if Army was a club team. It's an NCAA varsity team though so players get recruited on scholarship, they don't come from the regular student body.
    As far as I know, Army is an ARMY school, so while they can try and throw the "scholarship" thing out, that's a whole load of garbage.
    It takes a militarily-inclined mind to go through a military school, because once you're finished (and because the army pays your tuition), you owe x number of years of service. So yes, you can try and convince your athletes to join the army, but really with a military institution you DO have to pick your team from the population.

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    ....And that is exactly why Army is a very weak team in NCAA D. I.

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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    ...and why RMC is usually at the low end of the CIS too.
    But that's also why Army is usually stronger than RMC, because for those two teams, the size of the school population from which you choose your team DOES matter.
    That being said, RMC's got a pretty good team this year, and the cross-city derbies against Queens University are always close games (especially come playoff time)

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    IHF Member Tokyo Bucks's Avatar
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    RMC 1000 vs ARMY 15000, but I wonder what percentage of each student body are registered competitive hockey players (so, it shouldn't be a straight 1:15 ratio in terms of player choice). But yeah, it makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    As far as I know, Army is an ARMY school, so while they can try and throw the "scholarship" thing out, that's a whole load of garbage.
    It takes a militarily-inclined mind to go through a military school, because once you're finished (and because the army pays your tuition), you owe x number of years of service. So yes, you can try and convince your athletes to join the army, but really with a military institution you DO have to pick your team from the population.
    Just because it's the Army doesn't mean everyone on the hockey team was going to go to school there anyway. Infact, most people on the hockey team probably wouldn't have been able to get in otherwise. Military academies are very hard to get accepted to.

    That's one of the advantages military academies have over other universities. Graduating from a military academy is great for a future careers and if you go into military service you automatically become an officer with a great starting salary so it's not like you have to worry about fighting on the front lines in Iraq.

    There's plenty of athletes that would give just as much thought into playing at Army as they would, say, Minnesota. Of course not as many are going to be up for it (especially considering Army isn't anywhere near as good as Minnesota) but Army still recruits their players just like any other school.

    Like I said, only club teams (Iliinois, Penn State, etc) recruit players from their general student body because they don't have scholarships to hand out and can only choose from players who can get into the school on their own merit.

  26. #26
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    You're right, Helix. However, the available pool of top-level hockey recruits is much smaller for Army than for a school such as Maine or Minnesota or Denver, etc., as not very many of the top hockey players available to NCAA Division I teams are willing to attend a military academy precisely because so much other than hockey will be required of them if they go there.

  27. #27
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    In 2004-2005, NCAA Division I schools went 37 wins against 4 losses and 2 ties vs. CIS teams not including University of Alberta.

    Here's an article in which several NCAA D.I and CIS coaches compare and contrast NCAA D.I and CIS.

    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...3_cis_vs_ncaa/

    The consensus is that the top 5 or 6 CIS programs could compete on a very even basis with almost every NCAA D.I program, but that the remainder of CIS teams are underneath NCAA D.I level.

    Essentially, with few exceptions (i.e., U. Alberta), the CIS consists of players who were not stars at the major junior or NCAA D.I levels, or perhaps only played at the Tier II Junior A level (and were not superstars there) and then come to the CIS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    In 2004-2005, NCAA Division I schools went 37 wins against 4 losses and 2 ties vs. CIS teams not including University of Alberta.

    Here's an article in which several NCAA D.I and CIS coaches compare and contrast NCAA D.I and CIS.

    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...3_cis_vs_ncaa/

    The consensus is that the top 5 or 6 CIS programs could compete on a very even basis with almost every NCAA D.I program, but that the remainder of CIS teams are underneath NCAA D.I level.

    Essentially, with few exceptions (i.e., U. Alberta), the CIS consists of players who were not stars at the major junior or NCAA D.I levels, or perhaps only played at the Tier II Junior A level (and were not superstars there) and then come to the CIS.
    So I guess the ACHA (American club college hockey) would be more comparable to the CIS than the NCAA?

    Top few teams can compete with D1 teams (Penn State, Illinois, Lindenwood, etc (I know that Penn State beat Robert Morris but can't think of any other NCAA v.s. ACHA matchups off the top of my head)

    ACHA D1 is usually compared to NCAA D3 (There is no D2 mind you, making D3 the level below)

    Alberta, and probably a few other top CIS teams, would probably still crush any ACHA team, but overall I think ACHA v.s. CIS matchups would be fairly even. Are there any past matchups between ACHA and CIS teams on record? Those would be interesting to see.

  29. #29
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Helix- View Post
    So I guess the ACHA (American club college hockey) would be more comparable to the CIS than the NCAA?
    Intersting article Marc thanks. Although it's a couple of years old, it does a pretty good job of explaining some things.

    I think the problem is trying to compare the overall systems - when the pop'n difference is 10 times greater between USA/NCAA and Canada/CIS it'll never be a really fair comparison. So one way around this would be to compare the the top teams from each system - and the best way to do it would be take the "frozen four" from NCAA Div 1 and top 4 from CIS and have a tournament. Given that these teams are all good (I think the top 4 in Canada would hold their own) it would make for a fun competition. They already do this in Volleyball (Can-Am at the Univ of Alberta) so it's do-able. Even though the U of A and U of Saskatchewan are elite teams in Canada West of CIS, they often don't win the CIS Championships leading me to believe that the two university teams out of the East of Canada would round out a nice top 4 list to play against NCAA Div 1. But it's all just talk for postings right now I guess. The NCAA is more fixated on their own championships and the NHL while CIS seems to be left out for a number of reasons. Too bad in my eyes.

    EDIT: A lot of people seem to think that outside of U of A and some others, the CIS competition level is low - I disagree and think this is because people are basing their opinions on old results. In the past couple of years, the other CIS teams have picked up their programs and are improving rapidly. Unfortunately there is recent talk of some schools showing interest in joining the NCAA hockey which will only hurt the CIS hockey (and other sports) programs.

    EDITEDIT: For those who don't have time to read the article link, here's a great quote and food for thought:

    "Even if regulations allowed them to, would the better NCAA schools even accept invites to play road games in Canada against the upper echelon CIS programs?

    “With the restrictions to NCAA travel right now, it’s becoming increasingly more difficult, but my guess is that they would frown upon it anyway against certain organizations at the CIS level,” said Stauffer. “What would happen if they were to lose against Alberta or Saskatchewan? If they come here and play at Rexall Place and then play at Saskatchewan Place (in Saskatoon), in the fertile recruiting grounds of these two provinces where they’re telling everybody that the NCAA is the way to go, and then two CIS teams of WHL graduates smoke them, what message does that send?”"
    Last edited by leftofcenter; 30-12-2007 at 11:20.

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    I would, based upon the results I've seen, compare the majority of CIS schools to NCAA Division III level - below NCAA Division I but above ACHA Division I (except for the top few ACHA teams, who can compete with pretty much any NCAA or CIS team - but they are the exception, and ACHA level hockey is, for the most part, below NCAA Division III level).

    I don't know of any CIS vs. ACHA games, but if any ACHA team would be a likely candidate to have competed, I would guess Penn State.

    As for the comment leftofcenter points out, I agree. It would look bad for a school trying to convince young Canadian talent to skip major junior and instead come play NCAA Division I hockey at their program to lose to a CIS team, even one as great as University of Alberta. Of course, if I'm the athletic director of an NCAA Division I school, I would tell my team to accept the challenge, and play to win. But that's me.

    I'll ask this question again - anybody know if a CIS team has ever played an exhibition with a major junior team?

  31. #31
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    I'll ask this question again - anybody know if a CIS team has ever played an exhibition with a major junior team?

    Hmmm, not sure on this one. I'll ask/email some friends and report back. I do know however, that U of A Golden Bears plays the Edmonton Oilers Rookies every year as part of the Oilers training camp and Bears' camps. The games are very "spirited" as CIS players want to show up the young guns/top draft picks and the oiler rookies want to make the NHL - lots of pressure with lots of coaches and scouts there. Of course the arena is sold out early and is rocking (only holds 3000 though). From what I can recall it's now even in the series (10-10) but the U of A Golden Bears beat them 5 years in a row and 6 times out of the last 7 years. They beat the Oiler rookies this year even with 2007 WJC star Andrew Cogliano in he Oilers lineup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    Thanks, Karsten....I think it's interesting as well.

    As for U. Alberta, they are traditionally the very top CIS team by a wide margin. See my post from 10/13/2007 in this thread where I acknowledge that. After reading your post, I did a little research......U. Alberta is, to my knowledge, the ONLY CIS team that has had ANY kind of success against NCAA Division I competition.

    Any idea if a Major Junior team has ever had an exhibition against a CIS team?
    It would never happen as they compete for players and neither side would want to be exposed as significantly weaker then the other.

    Then if you also factor in how do they decide which rules to play by (not as big a difference as it once was) and finally IMO, the biggest, the age difference. College players are obviously through HS, while I would wager more then half the CHL players are still in HS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by putting on the foil View Post
    Just a little more info about CIS- players with Major Junior get for each full season played in CHL= a year of school paid for(tution and books). So a 4 year CHL player can get 4 years of University or College paid for.
    Also, even if you played for 2 years but would like to go to school for 4 years, you can apply for extra assistance and the league will often pay for it. This is because many of the players choose to play pro rather then head to school so there are extra funds laying around. The CHL scholarship program has improved leaps and bounds over the last 15 years or so.

  34. #34
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    I'd be willing to bet that despite the age difference, only the top few CIS teams would do well against Major Junior teams, for the reasons I've explained earlier in this thread.

    Welcome to the board, by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    I'd be willing to bet that despite the age difference, only the top few CIS teams would do well against Major Junior teams, for the reasons I've explained earlier in this thread.

    Welcome to the board, by the way.
    Thanks...

    Sorry, I totally misread your comments. I had thought that you meant a game of US College vs Major Jr. My bad...

    Actually, a CIS team (typically the U of C) plays the World Jr team during the Selection Camp in December in Calgary. The games are pretty competitive and IIRC last year, the U of C won. Obviously you can only read so much into a game like that, but it shows that a CIS vs a Major Jr team would be a pretty close game and I would venture to guess that the majority of the CIS teams would win, mostly because of the age difference. Most of the CIS teams have an average age of 22 vs 18 with Major Jr. And that does make a big difference.

    As mentioned previously, the U of A is the best team is Western Canada typically each year followed closely by U of S. However, there are teams in the Maritimes that are typically as strong if not stronger year in and year out. Those top Tier teams in CIS would beat the Major Jr teams rather handily I think.

  36. #36
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    I agree with your reasoning as to why we'll likely never see a game involving an NCAA Division I vs. a Major Junior team.

    I'm going to have to disagree on the CIS vs. Major Junior theory, though.

    Despite the age difference, the Major Junior ranks have many of the world's very best 17-20 year olds, whereas CIS gets guys who were once in Major Junior, but were marginal players there, or were, at best, average players there. CIS will also attract guys who played below Major Junior (i.e., Junior A). With very few exceptions (and yes, there are some), CIS teams do not get guys who were Major Junior stars or minor league pros coming back to get some university classes.

    I don't think there is much debate amongst coaches, GM's and other experts that Major Junior and NCAA Division I are basically at an equivalent level of play nowadays.....likewise, except for a very few select CIS teams, most experts - including coaches - admit that NCAA Division I hockey is at a higher level than CIS....earlier in this thread, I linked to an article where CIS and NCAA coacjes confirm this. Plus, the stats show it....NCAA Division I teams have a dominant record against CIS teams. Yet, there is little doubt that Major Junior level is as good as NCAA Division I.

  37. #37
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    Not sure who I disagree with on this CIS-Junior-NCAA question of age, but based on what I've seen and the Hockey Canada officials I know and have talked to, the age difference IS a really big factor. Not only is "size with age" key but also the "experience gained" (especially in high stress and close games) after having played major junior, ECHL, and of course CIS, a huge factor. That's why I think the CIS top level teams are very under rated against the major junior and NCAA teams.

    In hockey - it seems like players often hit their peak in performance at mid to later 20s - when they've got more physical and mental attributes developed.

  38. #38
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Helix - I found a score from this season pitting the current #15 ranked NCAA Division III team in the nation (Oswego State, also called SUNY-Oswego) against the current #10 ranked ACHA Division I team in the nation (Kent State).

    Oswego State (NCAA Div. III) 5, Kent State (ACHA Div. I) 2

    I also note that Oswego State, besides having an NCAA Div. III team, also has an ACHA Division I team.

    There is no debate about the fact that Oswego's NCAA Div. III team is stronger than Oswego's ACHA Div. I team.

  39. #39
    IHF Member nep401's Avatar
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    Btw, if NCAA Div I is comparable to ECHL then what is NCAA Div III comparable to? Jr.A, Jr. B ?
    Waiting for Thailand to participate in world championships

  40. #40
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    NCAA Division III has a wide disparity in talent level between its best and worst teams.

    NCAA Division III hockey is probably, for an average run of the mill team, equivalent to US Tier II Junior A (i.e., NAHL teams) and weak Canadian Junior A. It would be well above Junior B level.

    The best NCAA Division III teams could probably play against strong Canadian Junior A and USHL (US Tier I Junior A) teams with no problem - but the worst NCAA Division III teams would probably lose badly to USHL and strong Canadian Junior A teams.

  41. #41
    IHF Member buffmatt78's Avatar
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    The Calgary SAIT Trojan men's ACAC (Alberta Colleges Athletic Conference) hockey team has just returned from an exhibition trip to Minnesota. The team won two of the three games versus NCAA Division III teams. The Trojans lost 2-1 to Augsburg College from Minneapolis, but beat Wisconsin-Stout 5-1 and St. Thomas University 5-3. Both of the latter teams are doing well in NCAA Division III, with 11-2-1 and 9-1-1 records respectively.

    news that NCAA approved a 10 year pilot project allowing Canadian schools to apply for membership..

    http://www.saittrojans.com/news/news...tml?newsID=141

  42. #42
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    People should know that SAIT is a technical college (trades) and not a university like the NCAA system. Good for SAIT. At one time, it's northern equivalent, NAIT in Edmonton would beat the U of A Golden Bears.

    Of course the NCAA would approve the pilot project - they want to suck up as much Canadian talent and weaken its competitor, the Mahor Junior leagues as much has they can. And this is a start as it will force the Canadian teams that enter NCAA to change the way they operate and take away players from junior hockey in Canada

  43. #43
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    I'm not familiar with ACAC hockey....how does it compare to CIS hockey?

  44. #44
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    I'm not familiar with ACAC hockey....how does it compare to CIS hockey?
    These are relatively small schools (technical or community university-colleges) from a sports perspective whose teams are really not comparable - especially now that the lower ranked CIS teams are improving rapidly. Even though the ACAC teams are improving (Grant McEwan College beat the U of A Bears 4-3 in their first game of the year) they are far behind CIS (the U of A Bears beat ACAC teams 10-0 and 8-0 in a mid season tournament versus NAIT and Augustana College).

    The goalie for the ACAC Grant McEwan team is Shannon Szabados, 22, who's on the Canadian National Womens team and a past AJHL Junior A men's all star player. It's good hockey but not close to CIS (yet?) But if the NCAA comes to town and pulls away some good CIS teams to Div 1, the ACAC could make a pitch to play against the CIS teams.

  45. #45
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    American NCAA Division I schools continue to dominate Canadian university teams as of the 2008-2009 season.

    To date this season (there are several games between NCAA Division I and CIS schools yet to be played), NCAA Division I teams have played CIS/Canadian university teams 33 times (all in October, 2008).

    NCAA Division I schools have won 28 games, CIS/Canadian teams have won 2, and 3 games ended in ties.

    Here are the scores of the games won by NCAA Division I teams -

    1. Alaska 3, British Columbia 2
    2. Bowling Green 5, Wilfred Laurier 1
    3. Ferris State 4, Windsor 1
    4. Miami-Ohio 4, Ryerson 3
    5. Michigan 3, Waterloo 1
    6. Michigan State 4, Western Ontario 3
    7. Nebraska-Omaha 5, Manitoba 0
    8. Northern Michigan 4, Toronto 1
    9. Ohio State 9, York 3
    10. Western Michigan 5, Windsor 2
    11. Robert Morris 9, Ryerson 0
    12. Quinnipiac 6, PEI 3
    13. Boston University 4, New Brunswick 1
    14. Maine 5, New Brunswick 4
    15. Massachusetts-Lowell 6, St. Francis-Xavier 1
    16. Massachusetts 6, New Brunswick 0
    17. Vermont 3, McGill 2
    18. Minnesota-Duluth 6, Lakehead 0
    19. Colorado College 5, Alberta 2
    20. Denver 5, Alberta 4
    21. Minnesota 3, British Columbia 1
    22. North Dakota 6, Manitoba 2
    23. Alaska-Anchorage 6, British Columbia 2
    24. Air Force 3, Alberta 1
    25. Canisius 6, Ontario 2
    26. St. Cloud State 3, British Columbia 0
    27. Mercyhurst 10, Royal Military College 1
    28. New Hampshire 8, St. Francis Xavier 1

    Here are the scores of the games won by CIS teams:

    1. McGill 2, Merrimack 1
    2. Toronto 3, Michigan Tech 1

    Here are the scores of the three tie games:

    1. PEI 3, Holy Cross 3
    2. St. Lawrence 2, Guelph 2
    3. New Brunswick 6, Maine 6

    I couldn't find any CIS vs. NCAA Division III matchups.

    There is one interesting game coming up later this month where an NCAA Division III team (Marian) is taking on a North Ontario Junior Hockey League team (Canadian Junior A, below Major Junior level) called the Soo Thunderbirds.

  46. #46
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    NOJHL is pretty low in terms of Junior "A".

    Last time one of the better teams in the NOJHL (the North Bay Centennials) played in the CJHL (2 games vs each team), they finished 2-18.
    The NOJHL is on a par with (or possibly even lower than, in some cases) most Junior "B" leagues.

  47. #47
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Marian is a pretty average NCAA Division III team.

    Incidentally, they've played the Soo Thunderbirds in each of the past two seasons, beating them (albeit by close scores) each time.

  48. #48
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Today, Canadian CIS team Ryerson plays NCAA Division III team Manhattanville, which has been a very good (although not powerhouse) NCAA DIII team over the years.

    Incidentally, Manhattanville has played CIS teams over the years, winning some and losing others.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, an interesting score from January 1, 2008:

    NY Applecore 6, SUNY-Stony Brook 4

    This is interesting in that Applecore is an EJHL team (U.S. Tier III Jr. A, slightly below NAHL [U.S. Tier II Jr. A] level) and SUNY-Stony Brook is a powerhouse ACHA Division I team (typically top-20 or even top-15 in the USA).

    Further evidence that ACHA hockey - even its Division I teams - are, with VERY few exceptions, not up to NCAA standards. NCAA Division I teams would absolutely massacre the Applecore (or any EJHL) team in an ugly fashion, and any better than average NCAA Division III team would sizeably beat an EJHL team. Yes, the VERY top few ACHA Division I teams can compete with NCAA Division III, CIS and even NCAA Division I teams. But they are the vast minority, and the rare exception rather than the rule. A good solid NCAA Division III team (not an elite NCAA DIII team, but one slightly better than average) should take care of most ACHA Division I teams (other than the very, very top few as mentioned above), crush ACHA Division II and III teams, and should take care of most low to even mid range Junior A competition. Strong Canadian Junior A teams and U.S. Junior A teams from the USHL (and probably the stronger NAHL teams and perhaps even the best EJHL teams) would be able to defeat an average NCAA Division III team, in my estimation.

    Interesting stuff.

  49. #49
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Marian surprisingly lost 5-1 to the Soo Thunderbirds, although they did outshoot Soo 35-16.

    Ryerson beat Manhattanville 7-6, coming all the way back after trailing both 5-1 and 6-5.
    Last edited by Marc Brunengraber; 27-10-2008 at 02:33.

  50. #50
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Another NCAA Div. I vs. CIS score to add, from Oct. 2008, again in favor of the NCAA Div. I team:

    Lake Superior State 7, Windsor 0

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here's another NCAA vs. ACHA clash from Oct. 24, 2008, with some history behind it:

    Alabama Huntsville (NCAA Div. I) 13, Tennessee (ACHA Div. III) 0

    Alabama Huntsville outshot Tennessee 66-8, including 24-0 in the 3rd period.

    Why play such a game?

    Alabama Huntsville was once a club team, and its very first home game ever was against Tennessee -which Tennessee won. Alabama Huntsville later became an NCAA Div. III team, then an NCAA Div. II team (back when Div. II existed), and now is an NCAA Division I team (albeit a weak one).

    The game vs. Tennessee on Oct. 24th celebrated the 30th anniversary of the Alabama Huntsville hockey program.

    Tennessee, incidentally, is an NCAA Division I powerhouse in several other sports, including American football and basketball, but only has club hockey.

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