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Thread: Medveščak and EBEL

  1. #1
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    Medveščak and EBEL

    As we heard some rumours about Medveščak's tendency to approach EBEL, there is also some talking about their plans to merge with ŠD Alfa from Ljubljana...

    What is your opinion...

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    there were some discusions in EBEL topic in austrian subforum.

    as far as i know, medveščak got 3 votes (olimpija, jesenice, vsv) in their favor to join EBEL, while 7 were against in some league meeting few weeks ago. as club officals told me, it means nothing, whole thing will be discused this summer. 3 votes are a good start, hopefully theyll get 3 more...

    merging with alfa was a story on slovenian forum, while medvescak sport director said that he never heard for that idea and it sounds unrealistic. probably true, but merging with alfa maybe they could use slovenian players as a domestic and make much stronger team under a 60points rule that will apply next season. i belive that crop of slovenian ebel players would gladely come to zagreb.

    only problem in a whole deal is if austrians want croatian club in a league. to be 11th club there are pros and cons. maybe they will leave alba aside, especially now when they played 36 rounds for fun. geografically, zagreb is close, highways all the way from all parts of austria. theres a rink for 6000 spectators and a club with decent history. austrian is one of the biggest exporters to croatia, maybe sponsors can work something out also, or maybe a whole thing is just a dream.

    medveščak at the moment is "only" second in first round of slovenian league, with a realistic chance of being first after 28 rounds...and probably be a only league winner which wouldnt be allowed to compete in playoffs.

    others are speculations. i just hope that in next few seasons dreams would become true and i belive as soon as they join, they will become strong title contender in ebel.

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    Banned STOLBUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coss View Post
    As we heard some rumours about Medveščak's tendency to approach EBEL, there is also some talking about their plans to merge with ŠD Alfa from Ljubljana...

    What is your opinion...
    that are stupid.nobody from medvescak dont know anything about it.I hope that medvescak board is smart enough to not go in such stupid "allie"

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    stolbun, you could said your point without f word

    medvescak is using more than few slovenians in its roster and most of them did well for the club. no need for insulting them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokke_wiberg View Post
    stolbun, you could said your point without f word

    medvescak is using more than few slovenians in its roster and most of them did well for the club. no need for insulting them.
    I know,know...just wnat that Medvescak stays CROATIAN club...at least on paper

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    My cents:

    In Austria there was always an objection against an odd number od teams in the league (although I don't really understand why) and I guess this is still the case. And basically the league is very well accepted as it is right now. Alba Volan has gained a lot of sympathies (maybe just becaause they are quite weak) and I guess they have learned the lesson that they can not compete with the kind of imports they had. The top hungarians are strong, the young players ok if they get decent imports from the start they will be ok. So I don't think and also hope that they will drop out. The league needs some stability over time.
    And as I said before the times where EBEL had to be glad to get new teams (Jesenice made it 8 which was more than necessary, OLL and AVS added two more) are over. So any team to join must be a high quality addition and it also needs to be perceived as such. That is equally important. A new team in the current situation has really to mean something to the average fan and that is out of control of the aspirant club. Zagreb might build a high quality team with a good organisation in the background but that is not enough they need to be accepted by the ordinary fan and that's something I don't see right now (independently of what my opinion is - I'd say bring em on if they got a good team).
    So the (only?) way would be by coloured paper from a sponsor who makes it attractive to the rest of the league clubs to accept Medvescak. Maybe Erste Bank or other companies get on the train - there's quite some who could be interested as Jokke pointed out.
    Or maybe there's another possibility. Due to the 60 points rule (which is, I repeat myself, completely bullshit) a bunch of decent players will be forced out of the league. This could make it possible for a Nationalliga team to take the step and promote to EBEL. Any Austrian team would be accepted, no doubt about that. If this was the case there would be 11 teams and a 12th one would have an easier way to get in. But this is pure speculation I have to admit.

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    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    If Medveščak were to join the EBEL, and honestly the team would need to be strengthened, I would hope they would not merge with any foreign teams to keep their Croatian identidy and have more home games in Zagreb than splitting home games together with Ljubljana. As jokke and Rex wrote, the location is good so getting sponsors to work on it (read: buy in?) really would be the main financial situation. The big difficulty would be in playing competitively with the 60 points, which comes down to team management using wisely, and making the average fan interested in Medveščak joining the league.

    I also do not understand the reasoning behind keeping an even number of teams since there only were 7 teams in the league just two years ago.
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    IHF Member RdeceKrilo's Avatar
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    Well the reason for the rumoras about Alfa and Medveščak merging is Alfa boss Pavel (Pavle) Kavčič. His "Alfa" project is not going according to his plan ( long story) so he needs something new.
    Also Stolbun please remove your signature....

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    IHF Member Acroni767's Avatar
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    Medveščak is doing solid in Slovenian league - they are on 2nd place after HD Jesenice mladi which is Jesenice 2nd team with youngsters that will be our future in next years,but this simply shows how BIG is the gap between Medveščak and EBEL.Even 4-5 foreigners would not be enough to participate in EBEL.
    Last edited by Tobias; 03-01-2008 at 19:04.
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    First of all...The merge with Alfa is very helpfull for Croatians especialy in terms of points sistem coz Medvescak dont have decent home players at all!
    And secondly merge of such two teams will not lasts so long, coz motives will quickly go apart...

    I belive for Medvescak would be better to join Magyar Borsodi league, and the best solution for Croatian IceHockey pride!

    ......and thirdly....Stolbun, dont be pathetic...

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    Banned STOLBUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coss View Post
    First of all...The merge with Alfa is very helpfull for Croatians especialy in terms of points sistem coz Medvescak dont have decent home players at all!
    And secondly merge of such two teams will not lasts so long, coz motives will quickly go apart...

    I belive for Medvescak would be better to join Magyar Borsodi league, and the best solution for Croatian IceHockey pride!

    ......and thirdly....Stolbun, dont be pathetic...

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    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    The smilies are doing a good job already, but please everybody, keep your discussions peaceful and civilized. Our board has a very good reputation. We don't want to endanger this.
    Read the board rules if you're in doubt.

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    IHF Member Acroni767's Avatar
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    HD mladi Jesenice 3:2 Medveščak increasing lead for Jesenice youngsters in Slovenian championship.Maybe they should be invited to EBEL instead of Medveščak? :)
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    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acroni767 View Post
    HD mladi Jesenice 3:2 Medveščak increasing lead for Jesenice youngsters in Slovenian championship.Maybe they should be invited to EBEL instead of Medveščak? :)
    I'd say a one-goal game isn't all THAT much of a difference, Acroni. I'm wiling to bet the game would go the other way 5 out of every 10 times it's played.
    That being said, while Medvedi's not doing all that badly at the level they're playing at, I will agree that they're definitely not at EBEL level right now.

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    acroni, would you be so kind and tell the forum how many penality minutes home team had, and visitors also...plus provide us a roster of a jesenice mladi.

    thx

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    IHF Member Acroni767's Avatar
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    Penalties HD Jesenice 4 : 24 Medveščak (Referees must be guilt for your defeat I belive)

    P.S. Both teams at very same level - Light years from EBEL level !
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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    I think it is obvious that if Medvescak were to join the EBEL league, it would have to significantly increase its player budget and sign a fairly large number of imports that would allow the team to compete. Accordingly, a future EBEL version of Medvescak would look very different than the Medvescak of today.

    The question is whether the Croatian core players of the team are skilled enough to play in EBEL.

    Of course, playing against higher level competition on a regular basis, together with lots and lots of repetitive practice, are the only ways to improve.

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    Fairly to say....Croats dont have EBEL core players. So if they wanted to play there, they must buy complete set of foreign players.... Wether they have such financal capability is another story, but...I belive they have!
    And I dont doubt they will fill their hall for such games what EBEL league provide, which is one of the most important thing.

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    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coss View Post
    Wether they have such financal capability is another story, but...I belive they have!
    Certainly by playing in the EBEL, they could charge more for sponsorship or attract sponsors willing to pay more because of the increased media compared to the Slovenian league.
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  20. #20
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coss View Post
    Fairly to say....Croats dont have EBEL core players. So if they wanted to play there, they must buy complete set of foreign players.... Wether they have such financal capability is another story, but...I belive they have!
    And I dont doubt they will fill their hall for such games what EBEL league provide, which is one of the most important thing.
    The problem is that under this new 60 point system, they would HAVE to have EBEL level core players. If they don't, then there is a serious problem there, as they would really only be playing with a single line of imports... I know there are a couple Croats playing in foreign leagues, and maybe they would be able to attract them to come back with proper sponsor money. That's where the supposed deal with Alfa would come in handy (though I really don't see it happening) as they might be able to loophole it to get Slovenians under the 60 point rule, but for me that would undermine the concept of a Croatian club in EBEL.
    Better to start work to keep some of the talented youngsters that leave the game so that maybe in a few years with proper training they can work up to EBEL level as pro players.

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    steigs, theres plenty of players of croatian origin that plays in canada/U.S. which could perfectly apply for croatian passport or already has it.
    i could name up to 10 players in north america with croatian background which i belive they would come to play EBEL from ahl, echl...ect. and major junior leagues

    also, in a new import 60pts rule, all players younger than 24 are worth 1pts (i belive that info is right); so it wouldnt be a problem to fix a team in 60 pts rule.

    ONLY WAY, but really only way for a croatian youngster to make a decent carrer in this sport is to send them all abroad when they are about 12-13 years old. croatian hockey has big infrastuctual problems and i just dont see how we can build few rinks to enlarge base. small steps are joining with junior national teams to some neighbour league but it didnt work, coz many of the kids have school and in our u20 some 14-year olds played; and hungarians wanted that croatia plays all games in hungary, same as slovenians and austrians.
    next year should be better, austrians promised that their clubs would come to croatia to play super junior league (aus, slo, cro nt)

  22. #22
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    The thing, Jokke, is that there are at least a few pretty good players from every birthyear, are there not? Though most of these will leave the game in their late teens, if even a couple can be persuaded to stay with a Medvescak junior side (maybe in a Slovenian junior league if there even is such a thing?) or even as players in a Medvescak-2 team in Slovenian senior league, they could grow to the point where within a few years they would be able to join the Medvedi top team in EBEL. If you're only looking to feed a single pro team, a slow trickle of strong enough players (one or two every year or two) would be enough to replenish the roster and keep the team going for quite some time.
    From there, the main team could then promote the game and help build the infrastructure in Croatia, growing the base of the game and so on..
    The biggest problem in my mind would be to, first of all, get a strong enough roster for EBEL (and ensure that enough good playrs are still available to be the core of a second team in Slovenian league to replace injuries and develop youth) and secondly, to convince some of the top youngsters who might othewise leave the game, not to do so.
    It's certanly not the easiest way to go about it, but if the game is stagnant because of lack of funds to put towards fixing and building infrastructure, then this might be a gamble that could be worth taking especially if it turns out.

    I'm just not convinced of the players available, but if you think there are enough that could form the core of an EBEL team (with imports), I'd be interested to see your potential roster, and whether Medvedi could make it work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokke_wiberg View Post
    also, in a new import 60pts rule, all players younger than 24 are worth 1pts (i belive that info is right); so it wouldnt be a problem to fix a team in 60 pts rule.
    That is not correct. For the next season (if it's not going to be changed...normally rules in EBEL get changed at least 4 times between being announced and being implemented - in that case this would be a good thing though) the point system is as follows:

    domestic U22: max 1 point (0.5 is also possible I think)
    domestic U23: max 1,5 points
    domestic U24: max 2 points
    domestic +24: max 4 points
    imports +22: 4 points
    imports U22: 2 points (each team will be allowed max 3 U22 imports)

    Furthermore the teams' rosters can only consist of 22 players (now 25) which takes away the 3 insurance players that can not be on the game sheet anyway (only 22 spots). Blank lines on the game sheet will cost 1 point. The sum of the players' points on the game sheet may not exceed 60 points (which means that the teams still can hire players worth more than 60 points but then they will have to leave game sheet lines blank to get under the limit).

    The system is incredibly crazy it is in fact a deliberate likitation of the aggregate skill level in of the league - which is fairly unique I would say. Unlike a payroll cap it does not necessarliy cut on costs but it does cut on total talent in the league.
    An economic analysis of this thing is pretty complicated but I'll try:
    Beside the monetary dimension (players market values and club finances) the points introduce a second dimension the clubs and players have to consider. These two dimensions interact such that the market value of players is influenced by the points they are given. Due to the fact that the points assigend to a player are by no means guaranteed to reflect his true playing strengths we can have overvalued and undervalued players. The Uxx players (let's say the good ones) are purposfully undervalued which gives them a good position in the marketplace. This means that although they only cost 1 point each they will cost more money because competition for these payers will be tough. On the other hand a overrated "veteran" (note that there is an incentive to overrate other teams' players in the evaluation process!) are the big losers. They have to offset the points they cost a club in terms of salary which might not even be possible because of the point limit so we can easily end up with decent league proven players not being able to find employment. What a crap.
    This might lead to roster composition of a lot of imports and big bunch of pretty young (and supposedly weak) players without a sufficiet number of decent domestic veterans that might lead the youngsters in the 3rd and 4th line such that the coaches are forced to play a lot of 2 line hockey due to the sharp playing strength decrease from the top to the bottom players of their teams. If this happens the whole purpose of the point reduction (bringing more younger players on the ice) could collapse.
    But I am getting off topic, this should be discussed in an EBEL thread.

  24. #24
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    this is just a fiction, but you could make a decent lineup out of croatians in hockey countries. some of them could probably sign to come back home. if bears would join ebel, there would be some tryout for croatian canadians in lower leagues in us/canada

    goalies
    danijel kovacic, sinisa martinovic, nick maricic

    defence
    mark popovic, cory sarich , toni & goran bezina, mark fistric, phil oreskovic, marc-edouard vlasic

    forwards

    nick drazenovic, marty sertich, derek & jordan krestanovich, geoff paukovich (could be croatian, same as matt rodoslovich), mighty joe , vjeran ivankovic, dario kostovic, michael novak, robert valicevic, sasa martinovic...

    this guys all play at least echl and level above, or top leagues in switzerland, austria, germany. theres more than dozen in youth levels, major junior, jr.A...

    i wrote only who crossed my mind in last couple of minutes. with this guys in a national team, croatia would hammer all div1 opponents.
    Last edited by jokke_wiberg; 06-01-2008 at 23:24.

  25. #25
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    ....*sigh* and I thought you were being serious with that comment earlier. heheh

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    actually, i am. level of import in EBEL is on AHL (roughly), most of these guys arent NHL-ers (mighty joe, vlasic, sarich are), and can be possible targets, especially coz of 60pts rule.

    im sure that dario kostovic would come to medvescak for normal sallery.

  27. #27
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    The other thing with that rule as it was described:

    why make a senior local player equal to a senior import? That's just stupid.
    If anything, make senior domestic players 3 points and ALL imports 5 or 6. That'll put the focus on domestic players, help develop the talent (and maybe cut back on teh U24/U23/U22, just make it U21/21-24).
    There have to be ways to keep things fair for all players. Either way the 60 point rule might well still help a Croatian club, which could (IMO) still manage to bring in a few domestic youngsters and grow them to truly EBEL-level players.

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    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    There is no way an EBEL team is going to attract a guy who is actually wanted by an NHL team.

    Guys from AHL and below, sure, as long as the money is right.

    I doubt Sarich has a Croatian passport.

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    i think EBEL to strong for croatian team right now. instead of spending money and resource on at least 5 import players, use this money to develop local talent. slovenian league is good right now, skill level is still high enough and gives ice time to croatian players not just the imports. Playing in a higher level league only helps develop program only if local players actually play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    The other thing with that rule as it was described:

    why make a senior local player equal to a senior import? That's just stupid.
    If anything, make senior domestic players 3 points and ALL imports 5 or 6. That'll put the focus on domestic players, help develop the talent (and maybe cut back on teh U24/U23/U22, just make it U21/21-24).
    The problem in this case is the EU. It is possible to give the non-EU players more points, but it is not allowed to make a difference between an Austrian and for example a Finnish or Swedish player. The Finnish player or maybe a team (vienna???) could sue the EBEL.
    But the EU is planning to make a new law for domestic players, we will see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samara15 View Post
    i think EBEL to strong for croatian team right now. instead of spending money and resource on at least 5 import players, use this money to develop local talent. slovenian league is good right now, skill level is still high enough and gives ice time to croatian players not just the imports. Playing in a higher level league only helps develop program only if local players actually play.
    Problem with that is that sponsors are not coming to club saying: Here is x million Euro, spend them how you want. They can be attracted by Project called - Medveščak in EBEL, because they expect to benefit somehow from their investment. Project called develop local talents is not interesting. At least not for most of them and not for significant amounts.

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    As the things stand now, there isn't a single Croatian player capable of playing in EBEL. Merger with Alfa wouldn't have worked, because Medveščak already has Slovenian players who are better than those currently playing in Alfa, and it isn't enough to have a walkover through Slovenian championship. Instead of Alfa's Slovenians, Medvescak would have done better with the best Croatians from Mladost (Belic, Jacmenjak, Tadic, Novak, Grozaj, Cunko, Kucera) and Zagreb (Skrapec, Lovrencic, Piragic, Sertic), basically a Croatian national team.

    Therefore, Medvescak would have had to create a team from scratch, attracting sponsor money to build the roster and make hockey attractive enough to give new people in hockey federation to rebuild the hockey infrastructure. Current leadership is too incompetent to be trusted with any serious business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drax View Post
    Therefore, Medvescak would have had to create a team from scratch, attracting sponsor money to build the roster and make hockey attractive enough to give new people in hockey federation to rebuild the hockey infrastructure. Current leadership is too incompetent to be trusted with any serious business.
    And would the fans be interested in the club if they doesn't have any Croatian players?

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    I believe they would. Back in the eighties, Medvescak won three consecutive Yugoslav championships with roster full of Slovenian, Russian and Canadian players with few Croatians. The standings were full, hockey was the No 2 sport (behind football of course) in Zagreb.

  35. #35
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    I don't even know if the NY Rangers have a single American, and I still am a diehard fan.

    Why should it be any different in Zagreb than in New York?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    I don't even know if the NY Rangers have a single American, and I still am a diehard fan.

    Why should it be any different in Zagreb than in New York?
    Well Europe in genereal is different. It's more like a club feeling i guess, but i can only speak for myself. I would find it very hard to get an interest for a team if it didn't have any Danes on the roster. The NHL is something different, since it's really just a big mix already - the best of the best.

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    butcher, i would totally agree with you when we speak about basketball or football, but this is hockey and base of 500 lunatics that still watches it are desperate for a improvements. with better team, you could easily put another 0, behind 500 in dom sportova every week.

  38. #38
    IHF Member Acroni767's Avatar
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    Maybe you can get 5000 or even 6000 but if Medveščak would start loosing streak like Alba (and its likely it will start even worse) then you may not expect more than 100 fans per game.May be you think I'm kidding but I'm not!At a start of EBEL Olimpija play exellent and hall was almost full,few weeks later after 5 or 6 loosing games the hall was almost empty for a few games then they decided to left the hall open for everybody who would support the team.Thats the way it goes when the team has not a lot of REAL hockey fans.
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  39. #39
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    its easy to be REAL hockey fan when you live in a village where from all of sports only hockey egzist, it becomes bit more tricky when you can choose from football, basketball, waterpolo, handball ect...

  40. #40
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    Zagreb sport fans are picky. They want excitement, great spectacle, something to talk about to his friends who weren't at the game. Hockey has potential, since it is inherently dynamic interesting sport, far more exciting than handball that routinely puts 3 or 4 thousand people on international club matches.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drax View Post
    Zagreb sport fans are picky. They want excitement, great spectacle, something to talk about to his friends who weren't at the game. Hockey has potential, since it is inherently dynamic interesting sport, far more exciting than handball that routinely puts 3 or 4 thousand people on international club matches.
    only 3-5 times during season.For that would be enough auxiliary hall of Dom Sportova

  42. #42
    Banned STOLBUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokke_wiberg View Post
    this is just a fiction, but you could make a decent lineup out of croatians in hockey countries. some of them could probably sign to come back home. if bears would join ebel, there would be some tryout for croatian canadians in lower leagues in us/canada

    goalies
    danijel kovacic, sinisa martinovic, nick maricic

    defence
    mark popovic, cory sarich , toni & goran bezina, mark fistric, phil oreskovic, marc-edouard vlasic

    forwards

    nick drazenovic, marty sertich, derek & jordan krestanovich, geoff paukovich (could be croatian, same as matt rodoslovich), mighty joe , vjeran ivankovic, dario kostovic, michael novak, robert valicevic, sasa martinovic...

    this guys all play at least echl and level above, or top leagues in switzerland, austria, germany. theres more than dozen in youth levels, major junior, jr.A...

    i wrote only who crossed my mind in last couple of minutes. with this guys in a national team, croatia would hammer all div1 opponents.

    You forgot Patrick Kaleta,john Hecimovic,Tomislav Zanoski,Jadran Beljo,Jonathan Filewich,Mark Katic

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