View Poll Results: Wich country will get the 12th spot in the upcoming CHL?

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  • - Austria

    18 41.86%
  • - Belarus

    10 23.26%
  • - Denmark

    4 9.30%
  • - Kazakhstan

    4 9.30%
  • - Latvia

    5 11.63%
  • Other (please comment)

    2 4.65%
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Thread: Which country will get the 12th spot in the upcoming CHL 2008/09?

  1. #1
    IHF Member Aldair's Avatar
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    Which country will get the 12th spot in the upcoming CHL 2008/09?

    It's time to vote and to comment!

    The countries listed above seem like the most real pretendents for the magic spot. If you think there must be another country I've missed - just tell.

  2. #2
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Continental Cup super-final silver-medalist Latvians will probably get the extra spot. That's just my thought.

  3. #3
    IHF Member tanman9's Avatar
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    I voted for BLR to get the last spot, but however the qualifaction will work the LAT and BLR will fight it out hard to get in. The other teams from like AUT,NOR, DEN amongst others I don't think their leauges are strong enough yet.
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  4. #4
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanman9 View Post
    I voted for BLR to get the last spot, but however the qualifaction will work the LAT and BLR will fight it out hard to get in. The other teams from like AUT,NOR, DEN amongst others I don't think their leauges are strong enough yet.
    well, looks like by season 2 of the Champions League they'll all be in. From the sounds of it: 24 countries would come out to:

    8 from the top 4 (as per)
    Champions from:
    Slovakia
    Switzerland
    Germany
    Belarus
    Latvia
    Austria
    Denmark
    Norway
    France
    Italy
    Slovenia
    Romania
    Poland
    Netherlands
    Britain
    Spain
    Belgium
    Ukraine
    Kazakstan
    Lithuania

    ...probably those, though Estonian champ would also be a possibility over Belgian or Spanish champs?

  5. #5
    IHF Member Shardik's Avatar
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    I voted for Austria. Money rules and they need more Central European teams to give the league exposure there. I am sure IIHF is hoping that Red Bulls wins the championship again.
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  6. #6
    IHF Member Shardik's Avatar
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    On Kärpät's website there is an article that mentiones that as current European Champions Metallurg Magnitogorsk will be the 12th team. I wouldn't say this is certain yet as it has not been published anywhere else.

    It would make sense though I feel like 3 teams (of 12 in the group phase) is too much for one country.
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  7. #7
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    However they decide about the 12th team there is no clear cut decision to be made as it will be ad hoc. I can live with the fact that they design the competition to please the big league countries at first but the decision about the 12th team will have a bitter taste as long as it is not decided on the ice (which it won't be I guess). As it is there is just no appropriate criterion to sort club teams out.

  8. #8
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RexKramer View Post
    As it is there is just no appropriate criterion to sort club teams out.
    Agreed. If the poll who should get it, I would vote. But, since we can have no insight into what criteria the IIHF will use (commercial, ability, political), I really have no idea...

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    Agreed. If the poll who should get it, I would vote. But, since we can have no insight into what criteria the IIHF will use (commercial, ability, political), I really have no idea...

    Graham.
    Theoretically this is straightforward I think: the 12th sport should be given to the champion of the strongest league resp. to the strongest champion of the leagues in question (due to the construction of EBEL I think it should be league and not country based). But then again there's no plausible and accepted way to tell...

    Imho they should get the bunch of candidates together and make a qualifier tournament in the preseason. All the teams participate in tourneys anyway in August/September so it wouldn't impose too much of an extra cost. 2 groups of four so that all "serious" leagues are represented, the group winners meet in a decisive barrage game sometime later. Not a big deal and a fair procedure.

  10. #10
    IHF Member Aldair's Avatar
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    Right, as Graham says there is no way to compare betweem teams and leagues and we have only to guess what IIHF is thinking about. Anyway, I agree with Shardik abouth the ,money issue.
    So my vote goes to Austria. It can be Denmark also, but Austrian league seems to me to be stronger right now.

  11. #11
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    I would like to see it done in a way that the continental cup is before the start of the CHL. The winners of the continental cup could gain the final place in the elite few. Though I would insist then that any league that already have teams be not allowed to have any teams in the continental cup.

  12. #12
    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shardik View Post
    On Kärpät's website there is an article that mentiones that as current European Champions Metallurg Magnitogorsk will be the 12th team. I wouldn't say this is certain yet as it has not been published anywhere else.

    It would make sense though I feel like 3 teams (of 12 in the group phase) is too much for one country.
    Somehow it makes sense to give the last year's winner a straight chance to go at it the next time too, but if the point of this Champions' League is to sparkle some extra interest towards hockey in Europe in general, having the third team coming from one of the big countries is not the way to do it. From that point of view Austria would be the way to go, as I feel that hockey is already a big thing in Latvia. Hope I'm not showing my ignorance, but at least that way it feels to me judging by what I've seen on national level.

    Still, I voted "other" as I have this striking feeling it's likely to go one of the bigs. First, there's just too much Russian money in the works and sometimes oddball wins happen that mean some "undesired" team could achieve a spot. Sounds cynical, I know, but somehow the current state of our own domestic league has given me an odd wibe that something like this COULD happen...
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  13. #13
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shardik View Post
    I voted for Austria. Money rules and they need more Central European teams to give the league exposure there. I am sure IIHF is hoping that Red Bulls wins the championship again.
    I basically agree with this view. The Red Bulls can help the Champions League to get a strong start. If they don't win the EBEL championship, then I am less sure about the Austrian card. I wouldn't go for any Austrian club (of course).

  14. #14
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    Poland

    Champion Belarus - definitely

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karsten View Post
    I basically agree with this view. The Red Bulls can help the Champions League to get a strong start. If they don't win the EBEL championship, then I am less sure about the Austrian card. I wouldn't go for any Austrian club (of course).
    That sounds as if it was straightforward that an Austrian resp. EBEL team is not a suitable contender...for what reasons if I may ask?

  16. #16
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RexKramer View Post
    That sounds as if it was straightforward that an Austrian resp. EBEL team is not a suitable contender...for what reasons if I may ask?
    I don't think I indicated this.

    From what I have been informed, Red Bulls have the biggest player budget outside the clubs of the countries which already have 'qualified' for the tournament. With the right roster adjustments, Red Bulls thus have the potential to compete in the champions league. That's the reason why I would go for Red Bulls if they win the championship.

    If Red Bulls don't win the championship, then, as I said, I'm less sure about the selection of the Austrian champion. In this case, there are several reasons why Austria is not the natural candidate. The selection of countries is partly based on the IIHF World Ranking, and Austria (as well as Slovenia and Hungary) comes in long down that list. Here, Belarus is the natural candidate followed by Latvia and Denmark. If attendance and local media exposure is the main criteria, then Latvia will be the natural candidate in case HK Riga reclaims the championship. If geographical exposure is the main criteria, 'Mittel-Europa' is already well-represented with Germany, Slovakia and Czech Republic. In this case it would be Belarus and Latvia again. If recent performance in the Continental Cup is the main criteria, then it would be Latvia followed by Kazakhstan and Denmark. The Austrian champion was already eliminated in the first round, remember?

    Thus, there need to be very good reasons for selecting the Austria champion. Eventually, the IIHF will defend to explain its choice. The potential competitiveness of Red Bulls Salzburg is a good reason.

    There may be more suitable Austrian candidates, but, as I said, I wouldn't go for any Austrian team, just as I wouldn't go for any Danish team. If teams like Frederikshavn or Nordsjælland happened to win the Danish championship, they would in my opinion not be sutiable candidates if we want the ECL to get a strong start.
    Last edited by Karsten; 15-01-2008 at 16:22.

  17. #17
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    Ok, I see and I get the logic of your argument.

    Just some general words to the issue:

    IIHF national team ranking and CC results are possible foundations of the decision where the 12th team will come from and maybe they will indeed by used but I think they should not be used (especially not the former). CC has a profoundly odd formula and therefore shouldn't be given any substantial weight in this decision (just think of how the final round is seeded...very abitrary).

    From a sportive pov the 12th team should be the representative of the 8th strongest league as the best 7 leagues are already in. There's some candidates for this spot. One of them definitely being EBEL but there's no plausible criterion yet to base the decision on (outside the IIHF at least some endeavors are being made to construct a useful league ranking - within the IIHF, I don't know ;-).

    From a commercial resp. strategic point of view the 12th team should be one that sells well AND has a good squad. In that sense for instance Vienna Capitals would even be a better choice than Salzburg (they are leading EBEL currently, Salzburg is still struggling and way below where they have been in preseason - that's why they got kicked their asses in Aalborg ) as they are situated in a major European metropolis and have a strong fan interest and good media exposure.

    So the IIHF will have to combine these two conditions in their decision subject to the selected representative can be supported by the "objective criteria" the IIHF has at hands (which are inadequate to answer the question imho). Top EBEL teams have what it needs to be a suitable candidate but I agree it will be hard to argue. THat's why I voted for Latvia (good team with Riga, strong public interest, a nice to go place for away fans...).

  18. #18
    Banned STOLBUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    well, looks like by season 2 of the Champions League they'll all be in. From the sounds of it: 24 countries would come out to:

    8 from the top 4 (as per)
    Champions from:
    Slovakia
    Switzerland
    Germany
    Belarus
    Latvia
    Austria
    Denmark
    Norway
    France
    Italy
    Slovenia
    Romania
    Poland
    Netherlands
    Britain
    Spain
    Belgium
    Ukraine
    Kazakstan
    Lithuania

    ...probably those, though Estonian champ would also be a possibility over Belgian or Spanish champs?

    You forgot croatian champion

  19. #19
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STOLBUN View Post
    You forgot croatian champion
    Touché. How's the Croatian champ handled its international participation in the past few Continental Cups?
    This past year, I'll agree they defeated the Spanish champion and so I'll stand corrected on that note. Beyond that though, they fall below the other countries listed.

  20. #20
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Skip Lithuania....they don't even have a real national competition and Energija is AWFUL.

    I'll bet you'll never see the champions from Lithuania, Romania, Poland, the Netherlands, Spain, Estonia or Belgium in the ECC. The IIHF probably doesn't view them as powerful enough, prestigious enough - or popular enough (since popularity is seemingly a criterion) - to warrant inclusion.

    Likewise, you'll likely never see the champions from Ukraine or Kazakhstan, although they have a better shot, I'd bet, than the other countries I listed.

  21. #21
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Marc: note it said 24 countries.
    To me that says that you'll have to find 24 countries that have hockey and are in Europe, pick the best, and get their top clubs into it. I'd put Energija over Medvescak at the moment, and definitely above the Spanish clubs, so who else is left to get in before them?

  22. #22
    IHF Member kedr's Avatar
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    Medvedev said that like one of CHL's founders he will lobby for Metallurg Magnitogorsk (last winner of ECC) to participate in CHL in addition to 2 other Russian teams.

    So the 12th spot may be... Russian.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    Marc: note it said 24 countries.
    To me that says that you'll have to find 24 countries that have hockey and are in Europe, pick the best, and get their top clubs into it. I'd put Energija over Medvescak at the moment, and definitely above the Spanish clubs, so who else is left to get in before them?
    You forgot hungarian champion.
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  24. #24
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisz View Post
    You forgot hungarian champion.
    Hrmph. So I did. Well, that settles that.

  25. #25
    Banned STOLBUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    Marc: note it said 24 countries.
    To me that says that you'll have to find 24 countries that have hockey and are in Europe, pick the best, and get their top clubs into it. I'd put Energija over Medvescak at the moment, and definitely above the Spanish clubs, so who else is left to get in before them?
    sorry,but this is very stupid! why?

    Well Energia played 5:5 and won in overtime against Mladost at CC.Mladost lost to Medvescak in cro champ. 8:2(and in cro league youcan dress only 3 foreginers).So I dont think that energija is over medvescak.At LEAST they are equal

  26. #26
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svatos View Post
    sorry,but this is very stupid! why?

    Well Energia played 5:5 and won in overtime against Mladost at CC.Mladost lost to Medvescak in cro champ. 8:2(and in cro league youcan dress only 3 foreginers).So I dont think that energija is over medvescak.At LEAST they are equal
    You may have a point.
    However, seems to me both teams got trumped when I forgot to add the top Hungarian club into the mix.

  27. #27
    IHF Member Betterman's Avatar
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    According to hockeyweb.de there will be a qualifying-competition on sep 12-14 with the nrs 2 of Germany, Switzerland end Slowakia taking part. The winner will qualify as the 12th team for the CHL.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betterman View Post
    According to hockeyweb.de there will be a qualifying-competition on sep 12-14 with the nrs 2 of Germany, Switzerland end Slowakia taking part. The winner will qualify as the 12th team for the CHL.

    Yes, read it too, seems to be a reliable report. What puzzles me a little bit is the complete closure of the first CHL edition for teams from outside the big 7 leagues. I mean if they are going to otganize a qualification tournament with three teams there'd be almost no cost to add a fourth team or another four team tourney which feeds the winner into the one with SUI, GER, SVK #2 teams...Do that by the end of August, whole Europe is playing 4 team tournements anyway at this time...So why not have the champions from Belarus, Latvia, Denamark and EBEL play for a fourth spot in the qualy tournament?

  29. #29
    IHF Member Dimash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RexKramer View Post
    ...So why not have the champions from Belarus, Latvia, Denamark and EBEL play for a fourth spot in the qualy tournament?
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  30. #30
    IHF Member tanman9's Avatar
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    IHWC CHL picture becoming clear

    We are starting to get an idea of who will be in the first ever IIHF Champions Hockey League. 2 teams, HC Ceske Budejovic (CZE), Metallurg Magnitogorsk (RUS, and current European Champions), have clinched births by clinching the top seed for their league playoffs. A 3rd team HV71 Jonkoping (SWE) is well on their way barring a late collapse in the last few rounds of the season.

    In the other leagues we have got some pretty good battles going for the other spots, in Finland with 4 rounds remaning it will be between Karpat Oulu with 113 points and Espoo Blues with 106 points.

    In Slovakia, Slovan Bratislava has clinched the top spot with a 16 point gap with the regular season now over.

    In Switzerland, SC Bern has clinched the top spot where they clinched a birth in the qualilfier where the gap between 1st and 2nd in the NLA was whooping 22 points over Servette Geneva

    In Germany we have a 3 team battle brewing in the last couple of weeks in the season between the Nurnberg Ice Tigers with 107 points through 52 games, 2nd place Eisbaren Berlin with 104 points through 52 games and in 3rd place it's Kolner Haiewith 103 points through 53 games played.
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  31. #31
    IHF Member Laho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanman9 View Post
    In the other leagues we have got some pretty good battles going for the other spots, in Finland with 4 rounds remaning it will be between Karpat Oulu with 113 points and Espoo Blues with 106 points.
    In the very first CHL, Finland will send the two SM-liiga finalists, not the top dog of the regular season + the league winner. It's just this year and from there on it will go as you described.

    So we will know which teams clinched the spot in late May/early April when the SM-liiga playoffs semifinals have been played.
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  32. #32
    IHF Member leksandstars's Avatar
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    Nicee!

  33. #33
    IHF Member Shardik's Avatar
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    Why are people still voting in this poll? We already know the answer and it is none of the designated alternatives. IMO the mods could close this thread.
    Last edited by Shardik; 25-04-2008 at 13:35. Reason: stupid spelling...
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  34. #34
    IHF Member bordshockeypampen's Avatar
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    I think it will be a team from Slovakia, Switzerland or Germany. :)

  35. #35
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    Now, what do you think, which team will get the 12th spot? ;)

    I don't think Nürnberg will beas good next season as they've been the last years, Kosice for me is the waekest team anyway, so I bet on Bern.

  36. #36
    IHF Member bordshockeypampen's Avatar
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    Switzerland

    Quote Originally Posted by ElTres View Post
    Now, what do you think, which team will get the 12th spot? ;)

    I don't think Nürnberg will beas good next season as they've been the last years, Kosice for me is the waekest team anyway, so I bet on Bern.
    It's always difficult to compare teams from different leagues, since they don't play each other so often. But I would also position the teams the same way as you do. 1 Bern, 2 Ice Tigers, 3 Košice.
    Bern and Ice Tigers won the regular season in their leagues, and Bern has huge attendance figures, so they should afford a good team :-)

  37. #37
    IHF Member Spitfire's Avatar
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    Group A: Karpat Oulu (Finland), Eisbaren Berlin (Germany), Metallurg Magnitogorsk (Russia).

    Group B: HV71 Jonkoping (Sweden), Espoo Blues (Finland), Qualifier (TBD).

    Group C: Salavat Yulayev Ufa (Russia), Slovan Bratislava (Slovakia), Mountfield Ceske Budejovice (Czech Republic).

    Group D
    : Slavia Prague (Czech Republic), ZSC Lions Zurich (Switzerland), Linkopings HC (Sweden).

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