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Thread: Germany used an ineligible player, win vs Slovakia might be forfeited

  1. #101
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karsten View Post

    Referring back to what I wrote earlier, you can see that in the case of completing a player entry form, there is room for interpretation. When is a player entry form completed correctly? As for the 4-year rule, there is no room for discretion. Either it is observed, or it is not. Like other law paragraphs, that include specific numbers, it is very precise.

    Sp to return to the case in question, there is nothing exceptional about Jason Holland's violation of the 4-year rule. DEB may be in good faith, they just screwed up, but this will not be enough to justify the use of the exceptional clause, if properly applied. In this case, we would again be down the slippery slope where everything can be justified - like, if you're driving down the road at 200 km/h failing to observe the 80 km limit, and yoú argue: "Yes, you're right. I violated the law, but, sorry, I just screwed up, and therefore I should not be handed a ticket". This is exactly the way, the IIHF DIrectorate has been using the exceptional circumstance clause tonight.

    I'm still stuck on one thing here with regards to the exceptional clause. You've painted a very strict picture of why the exceptional clause shouldn't be applied. But if I'm speeding at say 73 in a 60 zone, that's a situation where the police could interpret my explanation and let me go - it's happened to me before. I was still speeding though. So if the DEB screwed up on the 3 versus 4 year, I could see how this mistake is interpreted under that clause. It's not like he only played 1 year and it becomes pretty obvious. This is a case of 3 versus 4.

    Sheesh, not sure why I'm belabouring the point as I'm cheering for Canada. But still this seems like people are very rule-oriented when life is not so clear cut.

    I would be interested to see how this is ruled upon by an external body.

  2. #102
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftofcenter View Post
    I'm still stuck on one thing here with regards to the exceptional clause. You've painted a very strict picture of why the exceptional clause shouldn't be applied. But if I'm speeding at say 73 in a 60 zone, that's a situation where the police could interpret my explanation and let me go - it's happened to me before. I was still speeding though. So if the DEB screwed up on the 3 versus 4 year, I could see how this mistake is interpreted under that clause. It's not like he only played 1 year and it becomes pretty obvious. This is a case of 3 versus 4.
    Sorry, but your speeding example doesn't work here. The IIHF have very clearly said that the DEB are guilty and that there is no excuse for their actions. Their reasoning behind not making Germany forfeit the games is that it is better for the competition for Germany to still be in it. When your police officer is letting you off on a speeding charge, he is not saying that it is better for society to let you off, merely that he accepts you had a reason why you were consciously breaking the law.

    Again, I come back to my earlier point, which Karsten also covers when he says that "The rule of law ensures predictability, consistency and transparency in the policy-making, including the policy decisions made, of the organization." Had France been in 4th place rather than Slovakia, Germany would have forfeited the games. Therefore, the leniency shown has nothing to do with intent or seriousness of the crimes. It is entirely down to the vested interests of the jury, in this case the other teams. That is the equivalent of having 12 members of the victims family on the jury in a murder trial.

    The whole IIHF "team voting" concept lacks transparency, lacks consistency and has an impact on tournaments. And CAS will rip it apart...

    Graham.
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  3. #103
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftofcenter View Post
    I'm still stuck on one thing here with regards to the exceptional clause. You've painted a very strict picture of why the exceptional clause shouldn't be applied. But if I'm speeding at say 73 in a 60 zone, that's a situation where the police could interpret my explanation and let me go - it's happened to me before. I was still speeding though. So if the DEB screwed up on the 3 versus 4 year, I could see how this mistake is interpreted under that clause. It's not like he only played 1 year and it becomes pretty obvious. This is a case of 3 versus 4.

    Sheesh, not sure why I'm belabouring the point as I'm cheering for Canada. But still this seems like people are very rule-oriented when life is not so clear cut.
    Of course, I don't know why the police officers let you go. You exceeded the speeding limit by more than 20% and that's too much IMO.

    But now to the point: you cannot compare exceeding speed limits to violating the IIHF's 4-year rule. There is a degree of uncertainty measuring the speed of a car with radar equipment, and this calls for some discretion. But, of course, this discretion must be limited. In Denmark, the police officers discretion can be used within 10% af the speed limit. That is, if you speed with more than 66 in a 60 miles zone, you will be automatically ticket. If you speed with more than 60 but less than 66, you may still be ticketed depending on the exact traffic conditions (incl. the weather conditions, whether you were driving in an occupational zone etc).

    As for the IIHF's 4-year rule there is no measurement uncertainty. I know that I will be repeating myself, but


    1) the rule says 4 years; it doesn't say 3 or 3 years and 11 months. If you apply the exception to players with 3 years, why not 2 years or 1 year? You will be on the slippery slope to the point where the rule becomes meaningless, and this will open the gates for a flood of dual nats which in turn will undermine not only the meaning of the IIHF tournaments but also one of the IIHF's most important missions, namely promoting hockey internationally.

    2) the rule doesn't allow for any exceptions (cf. the §204). That is, the IIHF statutes does not specify that some discretion can be exercised if a player has played less than 4 years, but more than, say 2 1/2 years.

    3) exceptional circumstances cannot be applied to the numbers of years and months a dual nats has played.

    The term exceptional must be taken literally, and I have a very hard time coming up with a situation where the exceptional clause might be applied §204.1c. I doesn't exclude that one can imagine such a contigency, but a simple violation of the 4 year rule (as in the Jason Holland case) is nót such a contigency, cf argument 1).
    Last edited by Karsten; 08-05-2008 at 17:06.

  4. #104
    IHF Member Cabal's Avatar
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    By the way, on sport1.de you can find some details (in german) about that story.

    -> it was Tommy Jakobsen (Norway) who found the details about jason holland on the internet. That Holland already played for canada´s youth world champion team back in 1996. Then "he started talking about it" he said.
    -> a german journalist then found out that Norway would protest if they would loose against germany, because of the holland-issue.
    -> this journalist informed Franz Reindl of the DEB then about that issue.
    -> then Reindl noticed his mistake and told it the IIHF.

    -> Franz Reindl acutally thought about his resignation but the team seems to stand behind him.
    -> Goalie Robert Mueller said: "He made an mistake, that can happen..." "If Franz would make as many mistakes as we make on the ice, then the organization would actually not work at all."

    It is also written that german fans screamed for his (Mr. Reindl) resignation after the game norway-germany.

  5. #105
    IHF Member welmu's Avatar
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    how crazy it is that other team player found that thing first?
    and why we have to discuss these things almost every time when WC:s in some level are going on? poor IIHF

  6. #106
    IHF Member bordshockeypampen's Avatar
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    Denmark

    IIHF has made a decision, maybe a bad one, I don't know. Why not accept the decision, and enjoy the rest of the tournament?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karsten View Post
    And it for this reason, I favour that the Holland-case be brought before the CAS. If this rips the IIHF apart, so be it. The IIHF cannot reform itself unless the organization is thrown into a deep existential crisis.
    I'd say, let the Danish play lawyers, and let the people from the hockey nations play hockey!

    (sorry about the rasist comment, but I've met other Danish people that seemed obsessed with rules and regulation, and had less understanding for the concept of "common sense")

  7. #107
    IHF Member Cabal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by welmu View Post
    how crazy it is that other team player found that thing first?
    I don´t understand it either welmu.
    It is really a terrible mistake and almost unbelievable that such a thing can happen. I mean Mr. Reindl checked if J. Holland is allowed to play, but he did not see that he wasn´t allowed to play!!! Almost unbelievable, because that is so easily fo find on the internet, with the stats of the player... Jakobsen found it out this way...

    Quote Originally Posted by welmu View Post
    and why we have to discuss these things almost every time when WC:s in some level are going on? poor IIHF
    Yay, really poor IIHF, and also very poor DEB...

  8. #108
    IHF Member welmu's Avatar
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    just use google Mr. Reindl....

  9. #109
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bordshockeypampen View Post
    (sorry about the rasist comment, but I've met other Danish people that seemed obsessed with rules and regulation, and had less understanding for the concept of "common sense")
    Huh?
    I have gone to great lengths trying to explain why the decision was not only wrong, but also a serious matter that adds to undermine the confidence in the IIHF.

    And then you come in from sideline attempting to brand me as an idiot. I resent that!

  10. #110
    IHF Member aimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kedr View Post
    Why not to have double control? National federations + IIHF. It costs 1/1000000 of the whole WC.
    There could be someone in charge of that also (at IIHF tourney, somewhere), but that still doesn't mean IIHF made the correct judgement in this case. This way every nation could have illegal players representing their country just becasue you can get away with it when they realize it.

    And yes, if I do think about it better, the organizing comitee should take care of the any eligibility issues regarding any player before game start. Fine the clubs / national teams for trying to play with not allowed players.

    You are organizing a tournament and you trust every team for doing this correctly ? What if they knew about Holland ? Everyone votes for "bad management", but what if ?

  11. #111
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bordshockeypampen View Post
    IIHF has made a decision, maybe a bad one, I don't know. Why not accept the decision, and enjoy the rest of the tournament?

    I'd say, let the Danish play lawyers, and let the people from the hockey nations play hockey!

    (sorry about the rasist comment, but I've met other Danish people that seemed obsessed with rules and regulation, and had less understanding for the concept of "common sense")
    Cycling had that attitude towards doping all the way through the 90s and it has almost killed the sport. Do you want the same to happen to ice hockey? If the rule is worth putting in the book, then it is worth governing correctly. If it isn't worth getting upset about, why have a rule about it in the first place?

    And I can't help but feel that you would change your attitude very quickly if it was Sweden currently in the relegation round and not Slovakia...

    Graham.
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  12. #112
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    Neither can I.
    Btw, IIHF and Germany are still in troubles as WADA has denied the press release by the IIHF that the World Anti-Doping Agency had given Florian Busch the green light to play in the tournament. On the contrary, WADA has now formally requested the IIHF to open proceedings against Florian Busch and suspend him temporary from any games. The press release was published on WADA's webpage on Tuesday.

    The IIHF has not followed WADA's instructions as Florian Busch also played last night vs Norway.

    Read more about it here: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...TH-T_oesK8Y9TQ

    So here we go, like ICU the IIHF is now at war with the international doping agencies. All for the sake of protecting one of its powerful pet members.

    Well done, Mr. Fasel. You certainly deserve another turn.

  13. #113
    IHF Member bordshockeypampen's Avatar
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    Slovakia

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    And I can't help but feel that you would change your attitude very quickly if it was Sweden currently in the relegation round and not Slovakia...
    I sure don't want Sweden to get a late 5-0 victory against Switzerland. THAT would be unfair, considering how bad the Swedes were playing yesterday.

    If Slovakia didn't want to be in the relegation round, they should have played better.

    I would have prefered a situation where Germany had lost their points, but their opponents wouldn't have gained any. But that option was apparently not in the rulebook, so I can live with the decision IIHF made.

  14. #114
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    And here is an extraction of WADA's press release published 2 days ago


    In this case, WADA was notified on April 24 of the decision rendered by the German Ice Hockey Federation (DEB) to not impose a ban on the player. Since then, WADA has been trying to obtain, through the German National Anti-Doping Agency (NADA), the rules of the DEB regarding WADA's right of appeal. Unfortunately, after trying for several days to receive this information, WADA was informed by the NADA that the DEB would not answer questions prior to the end of the IIHF World Championships, which are currently being held in Canada. Due to this lack of cooperation, WADA has now formally requested the IIHF to open proceedings against the player on the basis of the IIHF rules and to provisionally suspend the player from any competition.


    Press release in full: http://www.wada-ama.org/en/newsartic...icleId=3115610

    On the basis of this, I'm starting to think that the German federation is not just making simple mistakes.

  15. #115
    IHF Member Cabal's Avatar
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    Do we not have enough problems already?

    Something has to happen in DEB-Leadership circles...
    I guess we can already cancel all hopes of participating in the olimpic ice hockey tournament 2010.

    I´m not wondering about the lame performance of our team yesterday, with all that bad things going on right now.

  16. #116
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    The German federation is a disgrace.

  17. #117
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    [QUOTE=bordshockeypampen;116406]I sure don't want Sweden to get a late 5-0 victory against Switzerland. THAT would be unfair, considering how bad the Swedes were playing yesterday.

    All people say that in those days and specially yesterday Sweden has very bad played.
    No, this Sweden team CANNOT better play because simply this team isn't strong, is a C Team.
    They miss a lot of player A Level (Champion asForsberg,Sundin,Lidstroem,Sedin's,Axelsson.Pähls son;Zetterberg,Alfredsson;Nylander,Naslund), B Level(Samuelsson and others).

  18. #118
    IHF Member Cabal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohiba View Post
    No, this Sweden team CANNOT better play because simply this team isn't strong, is a C Team.
    Well many other teams would be glad, if they had some of sweden´s "C-Class Players" or equal players on that level.
    Sure the swedish roster is one of the worst swedish roster for years in a world championship, but hey there are enough teams in the world championships that would be glad if their roster would be as "weak" as the swedish.
    So, sweden has still a very good roster compared to teams like: france, italy, slovenia, norway, germany, latvia, denmark and so on.

  19. #119
    IHF Member Tobias's Avatar
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    This case is just a disgrace....i don't know what to say but i really hope that someone takes it all the way to CAS. Does anyone know what the general feeling is from other nations than Norway and Canada? What has Slovakia said so far?

  20. #120
    IHF Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bordshockeypampen View Post
    I'd say, let the Danish play lawyers, and let the people from the hockey nations play hockey!

    (sorry about the rasist comment, but I've met other Danish people that seemed obsessed with rules and regulation, and had less understanding for the concept of "common sense")
    If you want to spend more time here i strongly suggest that you find another tone. This is NOT the place for statements like that!

  21. #121
    IHF Member ElQuapo's Avatar
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    I can't help but think - why does Germany use so many Canadians to begin with?

    They should use their home-grown German players instead.

    In some ways I think using these players is even worse than Italy or France using Italian- and French-Canadians, as with the German example there is not even ancestry or anything involved, there is nothing "German" about many of these players other than them having played in Germany for some years - and if the last case is what to go by, then why not just have a World Cup of leagues instead of nations - SEL vs. DEL, NHL vs. RSL etc. I am overdoing the point there of course, but that is the case taken to the extreme.

    Anyway, a bit off topic - it's just the first thing I thought of.

  22. #122
    IHF Member Nightmare's Avatar
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    Let us all thank mister Fassel for the good organisation of this competition.(most incompetent person ever, i really don't know why he still sticks around )
    "It is hard to see a black cat in a dark room, especially when it isn't there."

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by bordshockeypampen View Post
    IIHF has made a decision, maybe a bad one, I don't know. Why not accept the decision, and enjoy the rest of the tournament?



    I'd say, let the Danish play lawyers, and let the people from the hockey nations play hockey!

    (sorry about the rasist comment, but I've met other Danish people that seemed obsessed with rules and regulation, and had less understanding for the concept of "common sense")
    Actually being obsessed with rules and no common sense sound very German

  24. #124
    IHF Member welmu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElQuapo View Post
    I can't help but think - why does Germany use so many Canadians to begin with?

    They should use their home-grown German players instead.

    In some ways I think using these players is even worse than Italy or France using Italian- and French-Canadians, as with the German example there is not even ancestry or anything involved, there is nothing "German" about many of these players other than them having played in Germany for some years - and if the last case is what to go by, then why not just have a World Cup of leagues instead of nations - SEL vs. DEL, NHL vs. RSL etc. I am overdoing the point there of course, but that is the case taken to the extreme.

    Anyway, a bit off topic - it's just the first thing I thought of.
    I found only three canadians for their roster, Schmidt, Holland and Tripp, then Fical who is half czech, Italia have 8 north americans and france have couple of french canadians. I'm sure, that they will use homegrown talent if they are good enough

  25. #125
    IHF Member ElQuapo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by welmu View Post
    I'm sure, that they will use homegrown talent if they are good enough
    If they (home-grown players) are not good enough, then the team is not good enough for the A-Group.

    Plain and simple - at least in my view :-)

  26. #126
    IHF Member welmu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElQuapo View Post
    If they (home-grown players) are not good enough, then the team is not good enough for the A-Group.

    Plain and simple - at least in my view :-)
    you can tell that to the italians
    Last edited by welmu; 08-05-2008 at 20:37.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    The IIHF are going to ripped apart for this if any of the teams decide to take it to CAS (and I plead with them to do so).

    Why would you let the teams vote on this? Ignoring the bias that Germany will show in their own case, of course the other teams would prefer to have Slovakia in the relegation round than Germany. Had the team in 4th place been a France, Italy or Slovenia, do we really believe that the teams would not have voted for Germany to forfeit the points so that these teams get an easier opponent in the next round? Therefore, the decision was not made as to the crime itself, but on purely selfish reasons. CAS will rip that apart and expose the IIHF's "pass the buck" mentality that they have.

    This should have been decided by the federation's disciplinary committee, as it is in most other sports. The IIHF are going to come out of this looking spineless and incompetent.

    I also don't agree with Ahti that Holland passing passport control is enough. The IIHF do not know who has dual citizenship as that is something that exists outside the sport and are not likely to know the citizenship status of every single player in the game. This case is a little different because Holland played in an IIHF tournament. But even so, it would be a huge task to check the full CV of every single player in a tournament (approximately 352 players in this case).

    Ultimately, as it is with most sports, it is up to the teams to do their own due diligence to ensure that the players they turn up with are eligible. Germany failed to do that, and so need to take sole responsibility for the matter.

    The only thing that the IIHF can do is have a formal approval of national team eligibility that exists outside of the World Championships, but that becomes unworkable when you decide to give a first cap to a player 2 weeks before the tournament starts.

    Who can say whether Holland was a big factor in the Slovakia game? It's an impossible question to answer as we don't know what impact not having him would have done. It is pure speculation. And surely, if that is the case, then the advantage should always be given to the victim?

    Probably a good job that the challenge to Fasel's leadership has already disappeared...

    Graham.

    German's really should forfeit 3 points b/c this should not be an oversight. The rules on this have been in place for enough time to make sure this doesn't occur. They should be EXTRA cautious w/ all Dual-Passport holders and make sure they get it correct. Hard to believe it was an oversight but maybe it was, either way they should lose 3 points for that game. They used an ineligible player and that's not right(whether it was accident or not). If I was Slovakia I'd be HOT about this.....even more so that they tied them in the Prelims!! Germany should be playing Slovenia in Relegation but instead Germany gets guarenteed to be in Swiss '09 and gets to play for a possible medal!! That's not right .

    In the meantime, for me I'm glued on Italia trying to advanse to Swiss '09!!

  28. #128
    IHF Member leftofcenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElQuapo View Post
    If they (home-grown players) are not good enough, then the team is not good enough for the A-Group.

    Plain and simple - at least in my view :-)
    And that holds true for Canadian coaches and Canadian development programs? Or Swedish in Denmark. Be careful of setting standards that come back to bite you (in painful places)

  29. #129
    IHF Member ElQuapo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftofcenter View Post
    And that holds true for Canadian coaches and Canadian development programs? Or Swedish in Denmark. Be careful of setting standards that come back to bite you (in painful places)
    I don't think that can be compared.

    A player who is born and lives all his youth in a country should of course allways be eligible for his country of birth. No one has ever questioned that as far as I am aware. It is players born and raised in one country suddenly being eligible for a 2nd national team that they have (in my opinion) no path to other than the fact that they have played in the league of this country for a couple of years, that is questionable.

    In my opinion there are three different types of players in this question :

    - born in country X, immigrates to country Y at young age and gets country Y's nationality - should of course be able to play for country Y.

    - born in country X, is raised in country X but has some sort of ancestral connection to country Y (like North Americans who consider themselves Italian-American, Italian-Canadian etc.) - more of a grey area, ideally should not be able to play for country Y, but in my opinion can "morally" (for lack of a better word) be accepted.

    - born in country X, is raised in country X, goes to play hockey in country Y at older age and has no ancestral or family connections what so ever to country Y, has no intention of immigrating to country Y permanently (keeps North American 2nd nationality) - should not be allowed to play for country Y.

    The way I see it, it is not a question of who has the most stake in training the player as such - as I said, if that where the concern, then why even have national teams, why not play NHL vs. DEL, SEL vs. NLA etc. Have the NHL win the World Championship against the RSL?

  30. #130
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    Jason Holland's grandfather lived in Nuremberg for some years. Now people also have to learn a bit of a language to get German nationality.

    I think Reindl was very quick in endorsing responsibility. To protect the coach who actually wanted the player ?
    I have a question : how the DEB is working ? This federation has an invisible president, Franz Reindl seems the only one to talk to the media, to report about things, to analyze, and now to check players eligibility ?

    See IIHF : every time something works wrong (a referee mistake, a congress decision), blame the president - Fasel. It's stupid, but this is the way it usually works in all organizations. All of them, but DEB.
    That's the way it crumbles, cookie-wise

  31. #131
    IHF Member Karsten's Avatar
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    The Florian Busch Case: DEB refuse to cooperate with WADA; German government suspends financial support to DEB

    Here are more details on the florian Busch case, and they certainly do not put the German ice hockey federation in a positive light.

    I'm citing extensively from an article published in Reuters yesterday:

    "The World Anti-Doping Agency had on Tuesday asked the IIHF to suspend Busch, saying the German Ice Hockey Federation (DEB) had failed to cooperate in an investigation into an alleged doping violation involving the player.

    Busch's selection in Germany's squad came under scrutiny when it was revealed he refused to take an unannounced German Anti-Doping Agency (NADA) drug test on March 6. He changed his mind a few hours later and took the test which was negative.
    Busch was fined 5,000 euros ($7,745) and given 56 hours of community service for refusing to take the test but the DEB did not ban him, which is the penalty set out in the NADA code.

    WADA said it had been trying to obtain, through the NADA, the DEB's rules regarding WADA's right of appeal but the German federation would not respond until the worlds finish on May 18.

    Germany's Interior Ministry said on Wednesday it was halting subsidies worth 325,000 euros ($503,400) to the DEB, which would also have to repay 125,000 euros in public funds it had already been given, because of the federation's position on Busch.

    "We are trying to draw the right consequences from this case," Christoph Bergner, German state secretary in the Interior Ministry and responsible for sport, was quoted as saying by sports news agency SID. The DEB said it would not accept the penalty."

    The article also sheds light on why the IIHF has ignored WADA's call for a temporary ban:

    "Florian Busch was cleared on Wednesday to play at the world championships after the International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) rejected a request by WADA to suspend the forward.
    The IIHF said in a statement on Wednesday the case remained in the hands of the German anti-doping agencies. It added that until "all appeals of the German National Anti-Doping Code have been pursued and completed, the IIHF is not in a position to interfere in the decisions with its member national associations".

    For those of you who have also followed the ICU's handling of the doping scandals in cycling, does this ring a bell?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/7503592

  32. #132
    IHF Member indulgeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LP28 View Post
    If I was Slovakia I'd be HOT about this.....
    according to hokej.sk wednesday evening, our federation tried to file a claim against the holland decision. slovakia asked that all teams have their say in making the decision and - in case of a new voting – all c group teams be abstain from voting but iihf refused to deal with it (iihf’s vicepresident tomita is reported to point out article 45 of the iihf statute).

    as for the fans, i haven't read many discussions because they are usually full of but from what i've read, fans either do not talk about it or they BLAME slovak federation for trying to file the claim because they think they did it just to get the points. i think most fans don't understand that this is not about our team but about iihf and it's principles.
    Last edited by indulgeo; 09-05-2008 at 00:36.

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    Ok, well it seems the rule is the rule. Germany should be punished.

    At the same time, slippery slope aside, the extra year would have little to no bearing on the players on-ice performance. This is not a case of being over the age limit at a youth tornament.

    Yes it is true that we can't say how him not being on the team would have changed the result, but to be honest the damage is done.

    The Germans should be sanctioned. The IIHF should clean up its act. Neither will happen.

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    Karsten, when you bring up the Busch case once more and state stuff that is yet deep in discussion between the institutions here in Germany ( DEB, NADA, Bundesministerium ) I would suggest to go all the way and ask, in which way pros from other professional leagues are tested ( in general, not to talk about nationalities, but leagues ).

    There are so many things to value and discuss, for example the statement of NADA, that 9 of the german players were not in the test programm, which is correct on the first view. If you go deeper, you will find out, that those players are logically set on testing lists by other leagues, such as NHL, AHL and others. The DEB stated, that according to the rules they hand out a list of 28 players in the focus of the national team to NADA, and these players are playing in Germany. The other 9 are on different lists handed out internationally to WADA. So it's simply not true, that these are not scanned. Politics is on the way and it seems to become a news war at times. The DEB just stated, that they will go into further talks and organizing WITH the anti doping authorities right away coming back from Canada. This is okay to me and let's see whats gonna happen then.

    Has somebody got any info on how the doping controls are organized for the NHL for example?

  35. #135
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karsten View Post
    For those of you who have also followed the ICU's handling of the doping scandals in cycling, does this ring a bell?
    And for anyone who thinks that this is much ado about nothing, German TV refused to show the Tour de France because of it's doping scandals and the German prosecutors have only just decided to stop chasing Jan Ullrich in a move in which Ullrich had to pay the penalty for doping, but without actually having a guilty verdict. Doping in sport is a huge issue in Germany just now and the DEB are playing Russian roulette with this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by OilHead View Post
    At the same time, slippery slope aside, the extra year would have little to no bearing on the players on-ice performance. This is not a case of being over the age limit at a youth tornament.
    That is irrelevant. The rule states 4 years. It does not state "until there is no improvement in the player's on-ice performance". Again, as I said earlier, there is no debate from the IIHF that the DEB were guilty and that it needs to be punished. The argument is the mechanism that they chose to decide the punishment and the reasons they believe they have for making this an "exceptional case".

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanseatic View Post
    Has somebody got any info on how the doping controls are organized for the NHL for example?
    The NHL has an atrocious attitude towards doping which mirrors that of the other major sports in North America. Has been discussed in this forum at http://forums.internationalhockey.ne...ghlight=doping.

    However, in most Western European countries, doping in sport is a criminal offence. That should tell you how much more serious those countries are about it. Had a British player refused to take a test, the British anti-doping agency (UK Sport) would also have requested a ban for the player. Actual numbers of hockey players tested are not given out, but it must be reasonably significant going by the number of positive tests we've had in the last 10 years (5 that I can think of).

    As an example of who aggressive the European anti-doping agencies can be, Italian cyclist Alessandro Petacchi has just been banned for 1 year for having a steroid in his system. He takes the steroid for asthma and does have a certificate that allows this steroid to be in his system up to a given level. His test came back to imply that he had taken 4 puffs on his inhaler, rather than the 3 that should keep him under the limit. The Italian Cycling Federation accepted his argument, the Italian anti-doping agency, CONI, didn't. They took the case to CAS, where he was given a 1-year ban.

    I can't really blame the IIHF here. Doping cases are regional since the rules, to some extent, are cross sport. This is purely the DEB showing that it will show a disregard to the rules where doing so suits them.

    Graham.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanseatic View Post
    Has somebody got any info on how the doping controls are organized for the NHL for example?
    I had the possibility to ask Patrick Fischer (Ex-Phoenix Coyote) in a chat and he told me that they get tested four times a season after a game.

    It's very important that all players are tested in training with unannounced controls and this is what the NADA does and so the DEB has to look that all players are in this pool. Doping is a too critical topic, no federation should risk any scandal.

    @graham
    The Petacchi-case is not that easy, the level of asthma-medication was much, much higher than allowed, not only one puff more. It could have been made by an extensive use of the medication but there are limits and if you are allowed to take such a medication you have to watch out for the limits, that's just clear.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonas View Post
    I had the possibility to ask Patrick Fischer (Ex-Phoenix Coyote) in a chat and he told me that they get tested four times a season after a game.
    Which is wrong. You should never put a number against it because they know after the 4th, you can do whatever you want. Also, I believe that they still don't test during the playoffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonas View Post
    The Petacchi-case is not that easy, the level of asthma-medication was much, much higher than allowed, not only one puff more. It could have been made by an extensive use of the medication but there are limits and if you are allowed to take such a medication you have to watch out for the limits, that's just clear.
    Don't get me wrong. I fully support what CONI and CAS did. Petacchi was over his limit and so should be disciplined. He was 35% over. Could you call that much, much higher? Not sure, I would; it is clearly over but I wouldn't say that it is obscenely high. But, they have now clarified the dosage that Petacchi takes, and it would appear that he was 3-4 puffs on his inhaler over, but that those were spread over the day.

    Graham.
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    Ok, so some misunderstanding has happened. ;)

    Very nice is that cyclist Piepoli was exactly in the same situation. But he da even much more of the same medication in his urine. But as he is licensed in Monaco the CONI couldn't do anything and the UCI doesn't want to do anything (at least it looks so).

    It's just very important that there are strict rules for everyone and they should handled the same. I don't think that it would make sense to suspend Busch for 2 years, but at least he should have missed the IHWC as a "suspension" or punishment. This would have been fair.

  39. #139
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonas View Post
    It's just very important that there are strict rules for everyone and they should handled the same. I don't think that it would make sense to suspend Busch for 2 years, but at least he should have missed the IHWC as a "suspension" or punishment. This would have been fair.
    Which is why I've long said that anti-doping should be brought entirely under the IOC's control so you remove the regional variances and sport variances.

    Personally, I think if Busch's case goes to CAS (and it sounds like it will), he'll be given a one-year suspension. That now seems to be standard for having a non-negative dope test (as Busch's was) against the 2-years for having a positive dope test.

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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by indulgeo View Post
    according to hokej.sk wednesday evening, our federation tried to file a claim against the holland decision. slovakia asked that all teams have their say in making the decision and - in case of a new voting – all c group teams be abstain from voting but iihf refused to deal with it (iihf’s vicepresident tomita is reported to point out article 45 of the iihf statute).

    as for the fans, i haven't read many discussions because they are usually full of but from what i've read, fans either do not talk about it or they BLAME slovak federation for trying to file the claim because they think they did it just to get the points. i think most fans don't understand that this is not about our team but about iihf and it's principles.
    The one's that blame the Slovak Federation are totally wrong and clueless. They need to be aware that it's really not a matter of just wanting the points so Slovakia can move on to Qualification but rather a situation where ALL the countries in the IHWC owe it to the other IIHF competing nations around the world to make a stink about it. This shows that they want to protect the field from situations like this....accident/oversight or not. It's very hard to imagine that this was an oversight by the German Hockey Federation(but maybe it was??). Not that the German's would have lost to the Slovak's in that game if Holland was not in the line-up(b/c they probably still would have won) but they should lose those 3 points as a disciplinary action. The fortunate part for the Slovak's would be that they would have moved on but that's really irrelevant.

  41. #141
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    I agree that the DEB should have checked if all of the nominated players are eligable to play for Germany. That's their job!

    But it was the IIHF who registered Jason Holland and gave green light for him to participate. So, I think it's not just the DEB to blame, but more the IIHF.

    As for Florian Busch, the NADA is a bloody disgrace! The player made a mistake, but tested negative on numerous occasions, not once he failed a doping test before, and those bureaucrats and functionaries, who for once see themselves on TV, have the feeling that they are important and can judge over the future of a young talented hockeyplayer.

    If you want to stop doping abuser, test on cycling for a start! And stop the 2008 Olympics in Bejing, as many of those "sportsmen and -women" , you will find many abusers there, if you care to use proper doping tests.
    Gott mit dir, du Land der Bayern, deutsche Erde, Vaterland! Über deinen weiten Gauen ruhe seine Segenshand! Er behüte deine Fluren, schirme deiner Städte Bau, und erhalte dir die Farben seines Himmels, weiß und blau!

    Gott mit dir, dem Bayernvolke, dass wir, uns'rer Väter wert, fest in Eintracht und in Frieden bauen uns'res Glückes Herd! Dass mit Deutschlands Bruderstämmen einig uns ein jeder schau und den alten Ruhm bewähre unser Banner, weiß und blau!

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansi View Post
    I agree that the DEB should have checked if all of the nominated players are eligable to play for Germany. That's their job!

    But it was the IIHF who registered Jason Holland and gave green light for him to participate. So, I think it's not just the DEB to blame, but more the IIHF.
    Not entirely true, if you read the IIHFs Statutes and Bylaws, but please explain. I am listening.

  43. #143
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansi View Post
    As for Florian Busch, the NADA is a bloody disgrace! The player made a mistake, but tested negative on numerous occasions, not once he failed a doping test before
    Irrelevant. Each doping test is, and must, be treated in isolation. I also disagree with the earlier poster that the negative dope test 5 hours later showed he was clean. There are drugs that can be out of your system that quickly, and there are things you can do to aid the excretion of the drug. The fact of the matter is that by refusing to do the test, Busch is guilty of a non-negative (different to positive) result. The standard punishment for that across all sports is a 1-year suspension, which is what CAS generally give if no accepted reason for the non-negative is given, as I believe is the case here.

    As you say, he made a mistake that deserves to be punished. The DEB clearly agree because they have punished the player. But, the punishment is excessively light in comparison to other similar offences. Therefore, it is NADA's duty to appeal to the DEB to get the punishment to a level that they deem appropriate for the seriousness of offence (and I really don't believe you can argue that refusal to submit to a dope test is not a serious offence) and keep consistent with other examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansi View Post
    If you want to stop doping abuser, test on cycling for a start! And stop the 2008 Olympics in Bejing, as many of those "sportsmen and -women" , you will find many abusers there, if you care to use proper doping tests.
    Sorry, but I think that rant is way off the mark. Cycling does more dope tests than any other sport. Had Busch been a German cyclist, he would have been given a year suspension, of that I have no doubt. As for Beijing, I think that misses the point. These aren't athletes who have failed drug tests but been given little more than a slap on the wrists, which is what Busch's punishment amounts to. If the athletes have returned non-negative or positive drug test, then absolutely they should not be in China. But you can't ban someone from competing on suspension without proof.

    Graham.
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  44. #144
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    so you would ban a player for year, altho he tested negative?
    Gott mit dir, du Land der Bayern, deutsche Erde, Vaterland! Über deinen weiten Gauen ruhe seine Segenshand! Er behüte deine Fluren, schirme deiner Städte Bau, und erhalte dir die Farben seines Himmels, weiß und blau!

    Gott mit dir, dem Bayernvolke, dass wir, uns'rer Väter wert, fest in Eintracht und in Frieden bauen uns'res Glückes Herd! Dass mit Deutschlands Bruderstämmen einig uns ein jeder schau und den alten Ruhm bewähre unser Banner, weiß und blau!

  45. #145
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    if i remember right nhl player Sean Hill suspended 20 games for doping last year. Ice hockey is not individual sport like cycling, one player is still just one part of the team.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansi View Post
    so you would ban a player for year, altho he tested negative?
    He didn't test negative. He tested non-negative. The test he produced 5 hours later is not the same test from a doping point of view. Therefore, yes, I would ban him for one year because it is consistent with the rest of the majority of the sporting world.

    Cycling: Alessandro Petacchi returns a non-negative result. 1 year ban.

    Athletics: Christine Ohuruogu returns a non-negative result. 1 year ban.

    Graham.
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  47. #147
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by welmu View Post
    if i remember right nhl player Sean Hill suspended 20 games for doping last year. Ice hockey is not individual sport like cycling, one player is still just one part of the team.
    Yes, but as we have said elsewhere in here, the NHL's attitude towards doping is appalling. The rules under which the DEL operate set different levels of testing and punishment.

    Team sport, individual sport. Irrelevant. Each player is a separate cog in the wheel. If you can't punish a team for an individual's actions, why does the team go short-handed for illegal equipment?

    Graham.
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