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Thread: "Dump and Chase" on European ice.....

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    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    "Dump and Chase" on European ice.....

    Quote Originally Posted by buffmatt78 View Post
    these guys flew over seas in the middle of camp, played on euro size ice without opening day rosters, cant fight, cant dump and chase....
    I don't see what prevented them from playing the dump and chase. It would require a different angle by the chaser, but that's about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazakhEagles View Post
    I don't see what prevented them from playing the dump and chase. It would require a different angle by the chaser, but that's about it.
    Its easier said than done. You have to understand that there is a reason why dump and chase hockey is so popular in the NHL and almost non-existent in Europe. Dump and chase generally only works in smaller rinks. This is because dumping the puck is an excellent way to relieve pressure through the neutral zone and reduce the effectiveness of back-checkers and the neutral zone trap. Dumping also forces the defense to turn and doesn't allow them to stand up on the blue line. Both these defensive tactics (traps and last-line blue-line) rely heavily on smaller (particularly narrower) North American rinks. As such dumping on a larger rink is somewhat redundant. Additionally, constantly dumping and chasing on a larger rink would run teams ragged. The NHL teams could have played dump and chase hockey but it would have been stupid, they would have simply been giving up possession for little to no advantage.

    Sorry if this is a little off topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagratid View Post
    Its easier said than done. You have to understand that there is a reason why dump and chase hockey is so popular in the NHL and almost non-existent in Europe. Dump and chase generally only works in smaller rinks. This is because dumping the puck is an excellent way to relieve pressure through the neutral zone and reduce the effectiveness of back-checkers and the neutral zone trap. Dumping also forces the defense to turn and doesn't allow them to stand up on the blue line. Both these defensive tactics (traps and last-line blue-line) rely heavily on smaller (particularly narrower) North American rinks. As such dumping on a larger rink is somewhat redundant. Additionally, constantly dumping and chasing on a larger rink would run teams ragged. The NHL teams could have played dump and chase hockey but it would have been stupid, they would have simply been giving up possession for little to no advantage.

    Sorry if this is a little off topic.
    This is a very interesting off-topic I think. Probably I'll move it to a thread of its own.

    Dump and chase can of course also be used on international sized rinks and it is not true that it is non-existent in Europe. As you line out the point why it is used more in NA is caused (but only indirectly) by the narrower rink. The narrower rink doesn't really make dump and chase per se more efficient but in the first line it makes trapping more efficient to defend against attacks that are built on skating into the zone which -if feasible- is more efficient than dumping and chasing. Thus, to prevent the attackers to skate into the zone defending teams trap more in narrower rinks because it is more efficient. As a "best reply" the attackers use/are forced to use d&c more often...This is the arguentation when you look at the attackers as merely reacting to the strategy of the defenders. But as attacking team you need not only react you also act (which in turn causes the defending team to have to react themselves) and then it is always good to have more options to enter the zone of which one is of course also dump and chase...In that sense dumping te puck once in a while just to remain unpredictable and to exploit a defense that is not covering the depth of the zone makes perfect sense also on big rinks I think.

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    IHF Member Ref72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RexKramer View Post
    This is a very interesting off-topic I think. Probably I'll move it to a thread of its own.

    Dump and chase can of course also be used on international sized rinks and it is not true that it is non-existent in Europe. As you line out the point why it is used more in NA is caused (but only indirectly) by the narrower rink. The narrower rink doesn't really make dump and chase per se more efficient but in the first line it makes trapping more efficient to defend against attacks that are built on skating into the zone which -if feasible- is more efficient than dumping and chasing. Thus, to prevent the attackers to skate into the zone defending teams trap more in narrower rinks because it is more efficient. As a "best reply" the attackers use/are forced to use d&c more often...This is the arguentation when you look at the attackers as merely reacting to the strategy of the defenders. But as attacking team you need not only react you also act (which in turn causes the defending team to have to react themselves) and then it is always good to have more options to enter the zone of which one is of course also dump and chase...In that sense dumping te puck once in a while just to remain unpredictable and to exploit a defense that is not covering the depth of the zone makes perfect sense also on big rinks I think.
    I guess if you want to generalize more, to me, NA hockey moves the puck "east-west" and skates "north-south" while EURO hockey does the opposite moving the puck "north-south" and skating "east-west". I think this contributes to more dump-chase hockey in NA. Although I have observed in the last 10 years or so (and especially after the breakup of the USSR), that more dump-chase tactics have been used by teams playing on larger ice surfaces. One part I dont understand in NA hockey is why teams dump the puck when the forward lines are trying to make a change. Why don't more teams pass the puck back to their defenceman so they can maintain possession while waiting for the fresh forwards to come on the ice?

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    IHF Member buffmatt78's Avatar
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    teams in the NHL dont like changing forward lines and D lines at dif times. same 5 guys unless special teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ref72 View Post
    I guess if you want to generalize more, to me, NA hockey moves the puck "east-west" and skates "north-south" while EURO hockey does the opposite moving the puck "north-south" and skating "east-west". I think this contributes to more dump-chase hockey in NA. Although I have observed in the last 10 years or so (and especially after the breakup of the USSR), that more dump-chase tactics have been used by teams playing on larger ice surfaces. One part I dont understand in NA hockey is why teams dump the puck when the forward lines are trying to make a change. Why don't more teams pass the puck back to their defenceman so they can maintain possession while waiting for the fresh forwards to come on the ice?
    Interesting...
    But I am not so sure if a NA-Europe distinction really exists in this issue. European hockey is not so homogenous. Furthermore I wonder if a) distinct "cultural" types of how the game is approached exist and b) if they exist how they can persist.

    For my experience in watching hockey ceteris paribus (comparing the game on similar levels of play) a big cutural distinction does not really exist anymore (surely was in the past when global hockey was seperated in two worlds).
    I mean all players have two legs and arms use the same equipment and are subject to the same constraints (physical and in terms of intra team coordination). The necessity to coordinate the actions of te players on the ice (where and when to run, which area/opponent to cover, where and when to shoot/pass the puck) surley cals for a "system" that gets the players into the right positions at the right time thus creating opportunities to score resp. to prevent the opposition to score but I somehow can't see why it should be rational for a team to heavily emphasize one distinct way of launching attacks. Sure some players are better suited by their skill set and body to execute the one and not another kind of play but especially in the pro ranks where the players are versatile enough I think that the bigger the set of well coordinated options of play a team has the more succesful it will be because the opoonents will be put into a situation where their within team coordination is likely to fail facing different plays again and again.

    I would really like to see an empirical analysis of the most widely used patterns of attack and defense and how they vary across teams and within games. In soccer such analysis is quite common (called network analysis) although from those I have seen I have the suspicion that the people doing this lack theoretical background and don't know too well what to do with the data.
    Someone an idea if something like this exists for hockey?

    PS: is hockey in NA played with everyone on the ice carrying a compass????

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    IHF Member Ref72's Avatar
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    I like your idea of supporting these concepts with data analysis. Unfortunately, I am not aware of such studies in our sport. Until that happens, us "experts" will be presenting arguments based on our own perceptions and judgement.

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    IHF Member Headcoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ref72 View Post
    One part I dont understand in NA hockey is why teams dump the puck when the forward lines are trying to make a change. Why don't more teams pass the puck back to their defenceman so they can maintain possession while waiting for the fresh forwards to come on the ice?
    Great Thread! Here's my two cents....

    When you go pay $50.00 a ticket for cheap seats at the local NHL game and you see them dump and chase all the time, you will hear people in the stands.....boo!

    Why, because they come to watch the game and the tactics of the game. Not the give it to the other guys. Back in the late 70's the Russian National team came to the US to play all sorts of pro teams, from WHA to NHL teams.

    During those games, not one time, did the Russians dump and chase....not once!
    That was the day (I was 17 years old) that I was going to change my game and never dump and chase again. If they could do it and get into the zone....so could I.

    Dump and Chase is a game of give-a-way. The team that controls the puck the most....wins! The team that doesn't finds themselves in the loss column.

    Pat Quinn once told me that you can attack the zone with mulitple pattern plays designed to allow you to still maintain control of the puck and not have to dump and chase all the time.

    So, I teach pattern plays to all of my players and we enter the zone with little to no problems. Once you get in with control, then it's all up to them to get it into the net. Ah, but that's another thread.

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    Last edited by Headcoach; 12-10-2008 at 19:47.

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