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Thread: World Cup 2011

  1. #101
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    I wish the IIHF could grow a pair and just simply slap some sense into the NHL.

  2. #102
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    IIHF can only control the national federations not the national leagues of IIHF members
    and the NHL was founded several years earlier than the IIHF so there really isn't anything they can do.

    The NHL is dreaming if the IIHF World Championships are going to skip a year and if they banned players form going the players would go anyways

  3. #103
    IHF Member BoltStripes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veghist View Post
    I hear now that the NHL wants to have World championships every other year, and in the other years there would be either Winter Olympics, or NHL organized Wold Cup.
    Either way, the smaller nations (ranked 15-25) will lose much of the momentum. For them the IIHF WC is THE event whole year.

    This sucks bigtime.
    It could be replaced by continental championships in years without world championships, as is done in other international team sports.
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  4. #104
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    Who cares?

  5. #105
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    The idea of a continental championships for ice hockey is not possible mostly due to the divisional gap between an elite hockey power like Sweden and minor hockey power like Poland.

    I think the national teams and IIHF should keep the traditional divisional World Championships format then waste their time with continental tournaments

    Another reason is that national teams like Poland use the divisional World championships to build up the strength of their teams while trying to keep their limited budgets stable for next years tournament.

    Hockey is a very expensive sport and many national teams in Divisions I,II and III don't have the available funds to travel across their continent to face opponents like Finland on a regular basis so Continental championship for them is not possible

  6. #106
    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    Not even just Sweden and Poland. Can you imagine a Russia-Luxembourg (highly unlikely even if there were continental championships, I know) game? Or Mexico-USA/Canada?

  7. #107
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    I think all that might happen would be the NHL would try to ban its players from playing IHWCs every second year, and Canada/USA would have to piece together teams from players playing overseas.
    The top European nations would for the most part have no trouble competing at a high level, and frankly I don't think Canada would either (there are plenty of high-quality players in Europe who would jump at a chance to wear the maple leaf), and from what we've seen the past couple years USA might resort to sending a squad made up of NCAA players, which might well result in them getting relegated (oops).
    If anything no NHLers in a given year would merely open the door to a couple more upsets, and probably give nations like Germany and Switzerland a better chance at winning a medal... if anything it would make things more interesting to watch, and even if the quality of play might suffer a tiny bit I don't think it would be by very much.

  8. #108
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    The European/North American stars of the NHL will show up regards of the NHL tells them and even if they didn't no one other than the Europeans would actually care about the IIHF World Championships and most North American hockey fans really don't care if the NHL players would be in it or not.

    Canada and the United States would still send a team made up mostly of European based players and some AHL players and both nations would still do well even without our top NHL talent.

    I really wish Canada and the U.S. would take the tournament seriously and actually try to win instead of rounding up a ragtag group of players to represent their nations at this important event.

  9. #109
    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    Um do you look at the Canadian and American rosters? Not a lot of top NHL stars do go and they still don't send "teams made up mostly of European based players and some AHL players".

    Last year's American roster is not your typical USA Hockey roster and it had 1 European based (Stastny and even 1 is a rarity), a goalie that played Major Junior who was there to soak up the environment and learn and not play (Campbell), 3 collegiate kids (Kreider, Miele, and Smith), and 3 players who spent about half or more of their season in the AHL (McDonagh, Porter, and Wilson). The rest all player the majority or entirety of their season's in the NHL. That's a level of youth and inexperinced that isn't the norm for USA Hockey but it's not a bunch of Euro based players and AHLers.

    The last Americans playing in Europe that made Team USA at the IHWC that I can remember off the top of my head are David Leggio in 2010 (played in 0 games) and Robert Esche in 2008 and 2009 (4 games in 08, 8 in 09). If the Americans struggled some with the roster they sent this past year, they would not "do well" with a roster full of AHLers.

    USA Hockey and Hockey Canada do take the tournament seriously, most years, but the problem is the NHL and the Stanley Cup PLayoffs. The NHL doesn't have to answer to either federation and even if they did USA Hockey and Hockey Canada would be morons to mess with the playoffs by either delaying, reformatting, and shortening the season so they end sooner. It's hard to not send a ragtag team when most of these players haven't practiced together off season. You may see 3 guys from 1 NHL team but that's about it as far as chemistry goes and there's no guarantee that those guys would even have any.

    The IHWC is already only really cared about by the Europeans. Canadian and American fans who care like the people on here are few and far between.

  10. #110
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    I guess another thing that hurts interest is that last year's one came after the Olympics, so it was hard to top that in terms of interest. But in the end, there's only a certain number of players that you can rely on playing in the World Championships, and it's going to be a challenge getting more players to participate.
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  11. #111
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    Most NHL players are tired or healing injuries after an 82 game season and with the playoffs being a best of 7 series in order to win the Stanley Cup I can completely understand why many choose not to join their national teams.

    The Players choose to play in the Olympic tournament that comes every four years due to the amount of prestige it has. But the NHL owners are still whining about how they hate to stop the season because they lose money.

    Etherway the NHL owners could care less about the IIHF World Championships and the Olympics that is why they want to restart the World Cup of Hockey because they control it and gain revenue form it.

    It's the owners that want the World Cup of Hockey to return not the players besides that does anyone else think it should be called the Canada Cup again and reuse the original trophy.

  12. #112
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    Most NHL players are tired or healing injuries after an 82 game season and with the playoffs being a best of 7 series in order to win the Stanley Cup I can completely understand why many choose not to join their national teams.

    The Players choose to play in the Olympic tournament that comes every four years due to the amount of prestige it has. But the NHL owners are still whining about how they hate to stop the season because they lose money.

    Etherway the NHL owners could care less about the IIHF World Championships and the Olympics that is why they want to restart the World Cup of Hockey because they control it and gain revenue form it.

    It's the owners that want the World Cup of Hockey to return not the players besides that does anyone else think it should be called the Canada Cup again and reuse the original trophy.
    Wouldn't that be conditional on Canada agreeing to host the tournament?
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  13. #113
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    I am not to sure if it would be conditional for Hockey Canada to agree to host the tournament in order for the Canada Cup to return,

    Another problem I had with the World Cup of Hockey was the format by making the tournament with eight teams and dividing them into two groups named North American and European with all of them advancing into the quarterfinals regardless of how well they played in the group.

    Does anyone know the exact reason why the format was allowed?

  14. #114
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    I am not to sure if it would be conditional for Hockey Canada to agree to host the tournament in order for the Canada Cup to return
    It would be, as the whole premise of the Canada Cup was that it was played in Canada and sanctioned by Hockey Canada (and the IIHF and the NHL too)
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  15. #115
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    Thanks for information Conesy

    What do most of our members at IHF prefer the Olympics or The Canada Cup/World Cup of Hockey as the premier international hockey tournament

  16. #116
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post

    What do most of our members at IHF prefer the Olympics or The Canada Cup/World Cup of Hockey as the premier international hockey tournament
    Olympics. Happens every four years and there's a lot of pride at stake. Even better when your country goes farther than expected.
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  17. #117
    IHF Staff Starkovs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    What do most of our members at IHF prefer the Olympics or The Canada Cup/World Cup of Hockey as the premier international hockey tournament
    Olympics and its not even close, happens every four year, brings together all top players, pressure of the entire country and the pride, what more could you ask for. The World Cup, meh, dont care either way if it happens or not.

  18. #118
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    Winning an Olympic gold medal and playing in the Olympics must be such an honor for hockey players like Sidney Crosby.

    Would have loved to see the 2010 US Olympic hockey team win the Gold medal but gaining a sliver metal is still a great accomplishment

  19. #119
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    I could care less about the "World Cup". Olympics and IHWC for me, please!

  20. #120
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    I do wish there was a major international tournament that could stand on its own with the best players. Olympics can be awkward due to it falling mid-season. If there were one World Championship every four years that occured post-Stanley Cup it'd be ideal. Unfortunately, that would require the NHL to bump up the start of the season into Septmeber which doesn't seem to be a priority.

  21. #121
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    Definitely Olympics but I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the Canada Cups/World cups that I saw. I am a big fan of the every other year IHWC and then Olympics and World Cup every four. I think it adds a significance to each tournament and as far as some of the nations just below the top tier, various other tournaments can be organized or the lower World Championships format can remain the same. The best thing would be for the IIHF to somehow get a piece of the action from the World Cup but who knows if that could actually happen. The physicality of NHL rules in an international format made the World Cups very exciting, but if I had to lose one of the two, Olympics or World Cup, I would by far be less upset if the World Cup was gone.

    Can't we have our cake and eat it too?

  22. #122
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    IIHF can only control the national federations not the national leagues of IIHF members
    and the NHL was founded several years earlier than the IIHF so there really isn't anything they can do.
    IIHF was founded in 1908. The NHL wasn't founded for another 9 years.

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  23. #123
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    Graham What about the NHA that was founded one year after the IIHF doesn't the NHL consider that league a part of it's history since they simply adopted their rules and awards after they created the NHL

  24. #124
    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    And? I'm not sure what you're getting at since it was still created AFTER the IIHF

  25. #125
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    What I am getting at is that the IIHF and the NHL should work together to make the World Championships workable for both sides.

    If the NHL would shorten the season to 55 games like every other European league then the players would have enough time to train for the World Championships and If the IIHF would allow Canada and the United States to host a world championship together then it would work out just fine
    Last edited by Hockeyfan 88; 21-08-2011 at 01:37.

  26. #126
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    What I am getting at is that the IIHF and the NHL should work together to make the World Championships workable for both sides.

    If the NHL would shorten the season to 55 games like every other European league then the players would have enough time to train for the World Championships and If the IIHF would allow Canada and the United States to host a world championship together then it would work out just fine
    Where's the incentive for the NHL to cooperate with the IIHF?

    Also, the logistics of your proposal of having both Canada and the US to host will be a bunch to work out. If that's the case if it happened, you'd have to have two cities on both side of the border first of all, and then you'd have to make sure that they're near adequate transportation places and the like.
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  27. #127
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    The incentive for the NHL is an increased popularity of hockey in the U.S. that would just be how the Olympics bring in fans instead it would be every year and since the NHL Players will be joining the World Championships American and Canadian fans will have a reason to watch the World Championships.

    If Finland and Sweden can co host the World Championships in 2012 then why can the U.S. and Canada do the same

  28. #128
    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    Why would the US want to co-host with Canada?

    Also, how would the NHL partnering the IIHF improve popularity f hockey in the US? Casual and even hardcore NHL fans could care less about the IIHF and it's events and I doubt the NHL being seen as subservient to them really change that.

  29. #129
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    The incentive for the NHL is an increased popularity of hockey in the U.S. that would just be how the Olympics bring in fans instead it would be every year and since the NHL Players will be joining the World Championships American and Canadian fans will have a reason to watch the World Championships.

    If Finland and Sweden can co host the World Championships in 2012 then why can the U.S. and Canada do the same
    Good luck with increasing the popularity as IIHF events are not very popular with NHL fans. IMO I believe that if you cut the NHL season short to have players play in the World Championships, then you're going to get fans mad over a shorter season. Ultimately, the number one hockey goal is to win the Stanley Cup, not to play in a World Championship, even if you're inclined to play for your country.

    The reason why the Olympics bring in so many fans is because that it's a once in 4 years event, and that it brings the world together. The World Championships only cater to the countries that are involved, and holding them every year isn't as exciting because if you miss it one year, there's always next year; with the Olympics it's "you miss it and you're going to have to wait for four more years".

    Another thing against cutting the season short for the WC is that the Olympics are something that everybody unilaterally looks forward to and thus, the schedules of the leagues reflect that. It's just more prestigious than a WC.
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    Conesy if their are no popular IIHF events in North America then what about the World juniors Championships?

  31. #131
    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    While it's very popular in Canada, aside from a small number of international junkies like those that post here, no one in America cares.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    Conesy if their are no popular IIHF events in North America then what about the World juniors Championships?
    Like Geoff said, it's not very popular in the States. The only recap of it that I saw was maybe a paragraph in the Washington Post just saying that Russia won. And to prove the point, it was hosted in Buffalo/Niagara this year, yet the majority of the fans were Canadian.
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  33. #133
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    In the U.S. it was shown on NHL Network so i got to see the tournament but you are both right about it.

    I just wish more American Hockey fans cared about the World Juniors.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    In the U.S. it was shown on NHL Network so i got to see the tournament but you are both right about it.

    I just wish more American Hockey fans cared about the World Juniors.
    The thing why it's hard to get more fans into it is that it's a niche part of hockey. The people I know are used to watching NHL players play, so anything beneath that is harder to watch; the speed isn't up to par with the NHL players, and I think that's a turnoff for some people. That and the WJCs aren't as heavily promoted in the States and some other countries, which is why it generally is ignored. As awesome as it is to see the future NHL stars play, it just isn't some people's cup of tea.
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  35. #135
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    Nobody in Canada cared about the World Juniors either until Canada won five times in a row in the '90s. The US got very excited (at least, by US hockey standards) for tournaments where they were contenders (1996 World Cup, 2002 and 2010 Olympics). If the US were consistent contenders in the WJHC or the WHC, the tournament would get more attention in the States. And, in the case of the WHC, they would be consistent contenders if their best eligible players actually bothered to show up.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaltender Interference View Post
    Nobody in Canada cared about the World Juniors either until Canada won five times in a row in the '90s. The US got very excited (at least, by US hockey standards) for tournaments where they were contenders (1996 World Cup, 2002 and 2010 Olympics). If the US were consistent contenders in the WJHC or the WHC, the tournament would get more attention in the States. And, in the case of the WHC, they would be consistent contenders if their best eligible players actually bothered to show up.
    I have to disagree somewhat. I can't argue against a Canadian about Canada's opinion of the WJC, but isn't it something of a tradition at Boxing Day to watch the WJCs?

    I also question how much the US was excited in 1996, 2002, and 2010. I think these are exceptions to the norm. 1996 was the first year for the World Cup but that was also the first one held since the NHL had gotten a good cable TV deal with ESPN. The Olympics will always be the exception in the vast American majority. Quite simply, even if the US won the IHWC, nobody cares because so few people here care about international competitions. Most of the people here aren't even aware that there is a Baseball World Cup, of which the USA won the two most recent; considering that is a hugely popular sport is a telling fact of apathy.
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  37. #137
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    The WJC became big because of TSN's aggressive marketing campaign, pushing it as "a great holiday event".
    If TSN hadn't been so aggressive with the WJC, it never would have gotten so big, no matter how many in a row Canada won.
    And you know the reason TSN was pushing so hard to turn the WJC into a big deal? It's because that was the only hockey they carried. They had no major-junior, no NHL, no anything except WJC, so they wanted to try and make what little hockey they carried into a big deal. It worked.

  38. #138
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    Steigs you are correct about TSN's motives for making the WJC into nationally watched event in Canada to gain money and increasing tv ratings.

    But why didn't CBC try to gain the rights to televise the event before?

  39. #139
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    Simply because it wasn't a big deal. TSN got "stuck" with the WJC when it wasn't a big deal and they wanted to make money off of it so they marketed the hell out of it.

  40. #140
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    Geoff: exactly right.
    Nobody cared, so it wasn't worth it for CBC to try and get the rights, there was no interest at all at the time.
    TSN just pushed it hard, with some really good marketing tactics, and it took hold. The rest is history.

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    We're having a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument. If Canada had finished, say, 7th every WJC through the 1990s because the best players skipped it, then the WJC would have been ignored no matter how much TSN marketed it.

    For the USA: think about any of those non-core sports like boxing, cycling, tennis. When Americans dominated those sports, they were big news-- Mike Tyson, Lance Armstrong, Andre Agassi. Now, those sports are nowhere in the US because the American competitors are not as competitive. I bet you can even name the American world champions who became celebrities in minor sports like figure skating, gymnastics, swimming, women's soccer or track & field. World champions mean something to Americans; 5th place means nothing. It's the same with hockey: when the US is competitive, hockey generates buzz. When the US is average, no one cares.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaltender Interference View Post
    I bet you can even name the American world champions who became celebrities in minor sports like figure skating, gymnastics, swimming, women's soccer or track & field.
    Ohno, the short-track speedskater in featured in restaurant commercials on TV, even in non-Olympic years, but that's about it. But seriously, does anybody care about gymnastics or figure skating other than the competitors' parents?
    World champions mean something to Americans; 5th place means nothing. It's the same with hockey: when the US is competitive, hockey generates buzz. When the US is average, no one cares.
    World Champions are nothing to Americans as well. Nobody down here cares, and few even know, that the USA won the two most recent Baseball World Cups or this past summer's World Championship of American Football. Right there are two of the three sports that the majority of Americans care about.
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  43. #143
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    That's because the Baseball World Cup isn't a world championship, the MLB championship is.
    And the World Championship of American Football isn't a world championship, the SUper Bowl is. right?

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    the Super Bowl is just a national championship. the only nation who plays American football professionally and actually cares about it as a sport is the USA.

    The World Championship of American Football is a sad joke

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeyfan 88 View Post
    the Super Bowl is just a national championship. the only nation who plays American football professionally and actually cares about it as a sport is the USA.

    The World Championship of American Football is a sad joke
    My post was sarcastic by design.

    However, have you ever watched CFL football? Pro football, and a damned sight more interesting than NFL. More high-risk plays because of the 3-down rule rather than 4 downs, means a lot more passing plays makes pretty spectacular offense (and defense too)

  46. #146
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    the Super Bowl is just a national championship. the only nation who plays American football professionally and actually cares about it as a sport is the USA.

    The World Championship of American Football is a sad joke
    That's a lie though, NFL has a lot lot better tv-ratings than ice hockey here in Denmark, both local league and NHL. And we actually have between 4 and 5 live games per week of that (with danish commentary even for 3 of those), in comparison about 1 NHL game per week and about 1 local league game per month.
    So I'd say it's pretty damn big here.

    And I couldn't really give a shit that they choose to call it "the World Series" for baseball fx, and announce themselves as World Champions, how is that different from the NHL playoffs being considered bigger than the World Championship in hockey anyway?

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    My post was sarcastic by design.

    However, have you ever watched CFL football? Pro football, and a damned sight more interesting than NFL. More high-risk plays because of the 3-down rule rather than 4 downs, means a lot more passing plays makes pretty spectacular offense (and defense too)
    When I was up in Montreal, I went to an Alouettes game. I will say that in terms of excitement and fun, it beats the NFL any day. And it just so happened that the end ended up coming down to the wire, so that was just an awesome game to watch.
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  48. #148
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    Yes I have seen CFL football when it is shown on NFL network and enjoy it alot more than the NFL.

    I find it more exciting because it has high risk plays and alot more passing.

    Does anyone watch arena football

  49. #149
    IHF Member Geoff's Avatar
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    Yes, but can we please keep this more on topic? If you want to start a football thread in the general section feel free.

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