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Thread: United Hockey Europe

  1. #51
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    This is getting interesting, and potentially very, very ugly.

    If AIK really does join the KHL, and if Leksand again somehow inexplicably fails to qualify to Elitserien, then I would not be surprised to see Leksand also join the KHL.
    It is a bit confusing as well, as AIK on the one hand says that they will respect the federations decision regarding the application to play in KHL, and on the other hand claims their right to play Kvalserien before they make their decision...

    I would not be surprised if Leksand goes the same way, but disappointed.
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  2. #52
    IHF Member ElQuapo's Avatar
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    How do AIK and Leksand expect to compete in the KHL?

    I have a difficult time assuming that they will magically get bigger budgets by playing in the KHL against non-swedish teams than against Alsvenskan opposition.

  3. #53
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElQuapo View Post
    How do AIK and Leksand expect to compete in the KHL?

    I have a difficult time assuming that they will magically get bigger budgets by playing in the KHL against non-swedish teams than against Alsvenskan opposition.
    Leksand doesn't expect anything at this moment as they are not applying for KHL membership.

    AIK on the other hand has received an offer from KHL to join for next season. AIK is on the verge of bankruptcy and sees this as an option to move away from their financial troubles as they have been promised economic support from KHL.
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  4. #54
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    At the European hockey summit in Barcelona, Medvedev renewed the "United Hockey Europe" project (although without that name). Key points:

    - 64 teams, a Russian (and near countries) conference and a European conference with Scandinavian and Central sub-conferences.
    - regular season with 62 games, then play-offs with 32 teams.
    - start in 2013/2014 – or as a second-best option 2014/2015

    Here is the long article, also with more realistic visions concerning European hockey, European Trophy and a new Champions League format idea: http://www.iihf.com/nc/home-of-hocke...ecap/7042.html

  5. #55
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    I don't understand why anyone tries to reinvent the wheel. The Champion League format as was proposed for the second (cancelled) season was very good and should have been implemented. Before there is a clear and straight answer, why was CHL cancelled and by whom, no other European club competition can be established.

    From Medvedev's presentation, I can only conclude that Russians are not interested in any kind of basketball or handball like European competition, but only in closed NHL type of league ran by Russians. Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in E(uropean)H(ockey)L(eague), no matter how Medvedev wants to call it. It would be a league of the money, by the money and for the money to paraphrase the Gettysburg Address.

  6. #56
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drax View Post
    I don't understand why anyone tries to reinvent the wheel. The Champion League format as was proposed for the second (cancelled) season was very good and should have been implemented. Before there is a clear and straight answer, why was CHL cancelled and by whom, no other European club competition can be established.

    From Medvedev's presentation, I can only conclude that Russians are not interested in any kind of basketball or handball like European competition, but only in closed NHL type of league ran by Russians. Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in E(uropean)H(ockey)L(eague), no matter how Medvedev wants to call it. It would be a league of the money, by the money and for the money to paraphrase the Gettysburg Address.
    The Champion League format does not work in european hockey, look 3 or so years back
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by vorky View Post
    The Champion League format does not work in european hockey, look 3 or so years back
    Russian sponsors pulling out doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the format.

  8. #58
    IHF Prospect streethawk's Avatar
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    European hockey needs a Champion League, the first one was great but maybe start smaller and have more reliable sponsor than Gazprom. I am certain that a vast majority of European hockey fans want to have a Champions League type tournament to determine which club is European champion.

    And keep in mind that it will take time to built interest and rivalries between clubs but over time interest and rivalries will develop just like it did with UEFA Champions league.

  9. #59
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Helix- View Post
    Russian sponsors pulling out doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the format.
    yes, but you need money to run such project. So, make a deal with KHL and you reach it. I dont say, accept all visions of KHL but only part of them.

    Statements like this are start of another failure

    In reference to the current trends in the KHL, Feichtinger said Hockey Europe does not support taking away clubs from existing leagues or the creation of artificial clubs in the regions where national leagues are present.
    After the KHL’s ambitious visions IIHF General Secretary Horst Lichtner compared with a Gagarin space flight
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  10. #60
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by streethawk View Post
    European hockey needs a Champion League, the first one was great but maybe start smaller and have more reliable sponsor than Gazprom. I am certain that a vast majority of European hockey fans want to have a Champions League type tournament to determine which club is European champion.

    And keep in mind that it will take time to built interest and rivalries between clubs but over time interest and rivalries will develop just like it did with UEFA Champions league.
    will not work without KHL, and KHL will not support it
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  11. #61
    IHF Prospect streethawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vorky View Post
    will not work without KHL, and KHL will not support it
    On the contrary my little friend, for the next champions hockey league to work the KHL must be exclude, it's the reason the first CHL failed, KHL is only interested in money and power.

  12. #62
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by streethawk View Post
    On the contrary my little friend, for the next champions hockey league to work the KHL must be exclude, it's the reason the first CHL failed, KHL is only interested in money and power.
    ok, so prepare yourself for failure of Champions League (ChL). European competition based on ChL principe will not work without russians. There are many reasons to claim this. ChL based on football is not suitable for hockey in Europe, maybe basketball model is, but football one is not.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by streethawk View Post
    On the contrary my little friend, for the next champions hockey league to work the KHL must be exclude, it's the reason the first CHL failed, KHL is only interested in money and power.
    Ahahah. This one is gold. You want to determine which club is the European champion without the KHL teams? I.e. without the strongest teams of Russia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Belarus and Latvia? So much credibility for this euro champion.

    The KHL isn't interested in champions league, and without KHL, champions league is a joke.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ult View Post
    The KHL isn't interested in champions league, and without KHL, champions league is a joke.
    KHL is interested in Champions League, so long as it can be assured victory... Gazprom pulled out its sponsorship of the second season. You think it might have something to do with the embarrassment of its pet league losing to Zurich? Count on it.

    Are you suggesting though that the KHL is already a champions league of sorts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    KHL is interested in Champions League, so long as it can be assured victory... Gazprom pulled out its sponsorship of the second season. You think it might have something to do with the embarrassment of its pet league losing to Zurich? Count on it.

    Are you suggesting though that the KHL is already a champions league of sorts?
    Embarrassment? You mean the tourney where they forced two Russian teams to play against each other as early as possible. Yeah, I guess you think Zurich would have became the KHL champion if they played in KHL that year? Whatever, I even didn't root for Magnitka in champions league, nor was I interested in watching them play. Not my team.

    And no, I'm not suggesting anything. KHL is an international competition of higher level than champions league could ever hope to be, with only 2 teams from KHL. I'm against any breaks in regular season, be it Eurohockey tour or champions league.

  16. #66
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    KHL is a Russian championship with few teams inserted to spice it up. When Riga, Minsk or Prague manage to win the Gagarin Cup, then I am going to believe that is a true international competition. Steigs is 100% right when he speaks about the attitude of KHL towards Europe.

  17. #67
    IHF Member Vicente's Avatar
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    They should do it like in Football:

    Have like 32 teams in Champions Hockey League and then have like 64 teams in the IIHF Continental Cup.

    Then they should have a point system just like the UEFA uses and have the lower countries play qualification rounds etc. But with having two teams directly in the IIHF Continental Cup final its stupid.

    In this way also leagues like the one in Belgium or Romania could be far more interesting if these teams actually would earn something else but the league's championship.
    RIP Pavol Demitra, Karel Rachunek, Robert Dietrich and all the other Loko players and staff that died Sept. 7 2011 !

  18. #68
    IHF Member Vicente's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ult View Post
    The KHL isn't interested in champions league, and without KHL, champions league is a joke.
    So what. Then they could play for the (Western) European champion. I guess people would love to see a high standard tournament of the best Swedish, Finish, German, Swiss, Austrian teams etc. ! If KHL is not interested in CHL - so what? It's there decision.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    In this way also leagues like the one in Belgium or Romania could be far more interesting if these teams actually would earn something else but the league's championship.
    You forget the main difference between football and hockey: money. In football it is extremely lucrative to qualify for the Champions League, and even playing in the Europa League can be rewarding if you get an attractive opponent. But in hockey, participating in the Continental Cup means traveling to some remote corners of Europe to play in empty arenas against opponents that nobody ever heard of. I don't think any team ever made a profit from playing Continental Cup (I might be wrong - just guessing).

    That said, I also don't know what the best solution is. A Basketball Euroleague type set up maybe? (I suggested it here a while ago and I saw that vorky also proposed it recently in another forum). The basic idea being that the participants are a mixture between big, attractive clubs that get a multi-year licence based on economic criteria, and actual champions based on sporting criteria (national champions). That way you have some stability (because of the longer running licenses), always attractive teams in the mix and still the sporting aspects that is important for the acceptance.

  20. #70
    IHF Member Vicente's Avatar
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    Maybe they could let the two finalists (or just the winner) of a 32 KHL play the two finalists (or just the winner) of a 24/32 European League similar to the ET (but where you have to qualify for as a Western European team) for a Euro title?! IMO this system would be the best for both sides.
    RIP Pavol Demitra, Karel Rachunek, Robert Dietrich and all the other Loko players and staff that died Sept. 7 2011 !

  21. #71
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    I agree with wildboar at #69 post - basket model.

    Look, we have two choices:
    1.Eurpean clubs and IIHF want Champions League (CL) model - dometic league + CL (soccer model)
    2.KHL wants united league, no parallel competition.

    Of course, you can create CL without Russians. Will you succeed? i dont think so. We will do nothing? Ok, KHL will lure clubs from Europe, no problem. KHL is doing it now and I am happy for it because I can see high quality hockey at home. I understand that fans from Germany, Suiss, Finland dont like it because they dont have KHL team at their country.

    So, my vision

    KHL + euro clubs with temporary licence (3-4 years)
    B-League (call it like you want)

    We would add a few euro clubs to KHL for 3-4 years (criteria as you suggest). These euro clubs would play only KHL, not domestic league. Maybe model of playing both leagues but it is not good (too many games, KHL does not want breaks during regular season etc)

    The rest euro clubs would play domestic leagues, would compete for B-League spots. The same model like UEFA Champions League. Club would play domestic league and B-League as Champion League. You know, we have also in soccer such B-league (Euroleague I hope, former UEFA Cup)
    So, domestic leagues would be still attractive for fans, sponsors, tv. After 3-4 years we can mix clubs. Some euro clubs added to KHL can move back and play B-League (+ domestic league) and clubs from B-League can earn KHl spot for next 3-4 seasons.


    I think all parts would be happy. KHL has its league, no breaks for international competitions. Plus has top euro clubs. IIHF has domestic leagues and B-League (Champions League).
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  22. #72
    IHF Member Vicente's Avatar
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    If we head like a 5 year ranking of the best european teams (not countries in this case) and the best xx teams would play KHL for a certain time and others could qualify for KHL and the teams in the KHL also could go down if they are not good enough in this ranking, I would also be happy. Everything that guarantees a top European competition at a very high level + strong domestic leagues is good for European ice hockey.
    RIP Pavol Demitra, Karel Rachunek, Robert Dietrich and all the other Loko players and staff that died Sept. 7 2011 !

  23. #73
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    If we head like a 5 year ranking of the best european teams (not countries in this case) and the best xx teams would play KHL for a certain time and others could qualify for KHL and the teams in the KHL also could go down if they are not good enough in this ranking, I would also be happy. Everything that guarantees a top European competition at a very high level + strong domestic leagues is good for European ice hockey.
    like this addition but will KHL accept it??
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by vorky View Post
    will not work without KHL, and KHL will not support it
    I don't see why not. It would be disappointing to not have KHL representation, but a Champions League's success would not hinge on it. After all, they didn't cancel the World Championships in the 70's just because Canada didn't take part.

    If the KHL is too full of themselves to compete against others, then that is their own problem, not the Champions League's problem.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by vorky View Post
    I agree with wildboar at #69 post - basket model.

    Look, we have two choices:
    1.Eurpean clubs and IIHF want Champions League (CL) model - dometic league + CL (soccer model)
    2.KHL wants united league, no parallel competition.

    Of course, you can create CL without Russians. Will you succeed? i dont think so. We will do nothing? Ok, KHL will lure clubs from Europe, no problem. KHL is doing it now and I am happy for it because I can see high quality hockey at home. I understand that fans from Germany, Suiss, Finland dont like it because they dont have KHL team at their country.

    So, my vision

    KHL + euro clubs with temporary licence (3-4 years)
    B-League (call it like you want)

    We would add a few euro clubs to KHL for 3-4 years (criteria as you suggest). These euro clubs would play only KHL, not domestic league. Maybe model of playing both leagues but it is not good (too many games, KHL does not want breaks during regular season etc)

    The rest euro clubs would play domestic leagues, would compete for B-League spots. The same model like UEFA Champions League. Club would play domestic league and B-League as Champion League. You know, we have also in soccer such B-league (Euroleague I hope, former UEFA Cup)
    So, domestic leagues would be still attractive for fans, sponsors, tv. After 3-4 years we can mix clubs. Some euro clubs added to KHL can move back and play B-League (+ domestic league) and clubs from B-League can earn KHl spot for next 3-4 seasons.


    I think all parts would be happy. KHL has its league, no breaks for international competitions. Plus has top euro clubs. IIHF has domestic leagues and B-League (Champions League).
    ..... why would western European teams want to play in the KHL? Sure there are some attractive matchups like Dynamo Moscow and CSKA.... but I can't see why they would be motivated to win entrance into a full season against KHL teams they have no connection with.

  26. #76
    IHF Member Oz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Helix- View Post
    ..... why would western European teams want to play in the KHL? Sure there are some attractive matchups like Dynamo Moscow and CSKA.... but I can't see why they would be motivated to win entrance into a full season against KHL teams they have no connection with.
    Says a guy from Florida. Why would Montreal Canadians play Florida based teams umpteenth times a year? At the end of the day everything is about the goddamn product on the ice.

  27. #77
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    I don't see why not.
    Medvedev said it, read russian media or IIHF articles to verify it. I dont know all reasons for this attitude but someone wrote some of them earlier here. KHL does not want international breaks during season. If we had CL, KHL would have to break season or current international breaks would stay (which KHL wants to abandon). Look at NHL. Why does NHL have problem with OG? I think you know answer. So, use it for KHL´s attitude.

    We should realise that hockey is played every day in KHL (and NHL of course), in soccer games of domestic leagues are played during weekend. Therefore UEFA Cham League can be played parallel to domestic leagues. Hockey is another story.

    IIHF should give up its dream of CL based on soccer model.
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  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oz View Post
    Says a guy from Florida. Why would Montreal Canadians play Florida based teams umpteenth times a year? At the end of the day everything is about the goddamn product on the ice.
    Sorry I don't understand your point at all. Montreal plays Florida based teams because they are in the same league and their goal is to win the Stanley Cup.

    Frolunda, for example, plays in the Swedish league against Swedish teams. Their goal is the win the Swedish league, not the KHL. They have no reason to want to play KHL teams. Frolunda's owners might want to play in the KHL, but their players have no reason to be motivated to qualify for the KHL in a tournament.

    Yes, the KHL product is better, but if Frolunda qualified for the KHL through this hypothetical western European tournament, their roster in the KHL would most likely need to be improved.

    Why would Frolunda's players want to lose their jobs?

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by vorky View Post
    Medvedev said it, read russian media or IIHF articles to verify it. I dont know all reasons for this attitude but someone wrote some of them earlier here. KHL does not want international breaks during season. If we had CL, KHL would have to break season or current international breaks would stay (which KHL wants to abandon). Look at NHL. Why does NHL have problem with OG? I think you know answer. So, use it for KHL´s attitude.

    We should realise that hockey is played every day in KHL (and NHL of course), in soccer games of domestic leagues are played during weekend. Therefore UEFA Cham League can be played parallel to domestic leagues. Hockey is another story.

    IIHF should give up its dream of CL based on soccer model.
    I was saying "why not" in reference to Champions League existing without Russian teams. Russian teams are not necessary for a Champions League to exist. All that would be missing is Russian sponsors on the boards.

    If the KHL doesn't want to play, that is their choice, but nothing is stopping them from cutting down the amount of games they play for breaks in the schedule. Just like nothing is stopping the NHL from adjusting their schedule for the Olympics. Both are cases of leagues that think they are above international competition.

  30. #80
    IHF Member Stolpskott's Avatar
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    Sweden, Finland, Switzerland etc..have strong leagues..no reason to join KHL.

  31. #81
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    -Helix-

    Ok, will Champions League work without Russians? I dont think so, you dont have money in Europe to run it
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  32. #82
    IHF Member vorky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolpskott View Post
    Sweden, Finland, Switzerland etc..have strong leagues..no reason to join KHL.
    you miss key point, these leagues want international competition.. but dont have money to run it without KHL.
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    My 2 cents..

    Most of us agree that we need some sort of european competition. We have 3
    entities that have an idea how this could be achieved: IIHF(Champions league),
    European Trophy, KHL.

    1.) Champions League: won't work, because

    - history showed it (EHL, Champions Hockey League failed)
    - dense timetable in domestic leagues(Players and fans are overcharged)
    - and strongest argument: gap between khl and other leagues is too big and
    gets bigger and bigger
    (UEFA Champions league with teams from Premier league but without
    teams from Spain, Germany, Italy and France would be boaring..)


    2.) European Trophy: won't work, because

    - they want to do it without russian clubs, so it can't be a strong tournament

    - they are not determined, one does not know what they want, too many different groups, no real leadership

    - you can't create a strong league including smalltown teams (Brynäs, Lulea, Kuopio..)

    - if they want a closed league this would be a revolution. I think is impossible to get all the teams from
    different coutries get started at one time.

    3.) KHL: could work(allthough i am not sure) because:

    - it is already there, development would be evolutionary

    - strong leadership. even if one has prejudices one must admit that they achieved a lot (organisation,
    infrastructure, tv-channel ..)

    - they want to make it with teams from the big cities

    - could be well marketed

    - would include all the best teams from europe

    - has the potential to be a real challenger to NHL

    I think 64 teams like Medvedey proposed is way too much. I would propose ~40 teams with
    20 from russia and around, and 20 teams from western europe with at most 3/4 teams
    from sweden, finland, szech republic..

  34. #84
    IHF Member Stolpskott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe View Post
    - has the potential to be a real challenger to NHL
    KHL will never challenge NHL.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by vorky View Post
    -Helix-

    Ok, will Champions League work without Russians? I dont think so, you dont have money in Europe to run it
    I don't understand why you seem to think there is no money in Europe (economic problems of Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland aside - don't think those countries would have teams anyway)

    If Continental Cup still exists after all these years without hardly any fan interest, a similar competition can be held for the best teams in Europe no problem. I doubt there are many Russian sponsors of the Continental Cup, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    You keep referencing the old Champions League, but a new competition would obviously be an entirely new project. One that would be planned without Russian money of course. The old Champions League and it's problems due to the economic recession and Gazprom are irrelevant to this conversation.

    Western Europe obviously wants a intra-league competition, while keeping the domestic leagues intact. The KHL is not providing this, so KHL is not the solution. A new parallel competition is the answer - with or without the Russians.

  36. #86
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    In Barcelona, the main difference between KHL and the other European leagues was that KHL wanted to organize a closed league, where the two main division would have been the KHL as it is now (plus Medvescak plus Milano), the other main division would have been a 32 teams league with teams picked up from various European top leagues. According to the KHL plans, the two main divisions would select its champions, and the KHL champion and the champion of the rest of Europe could play for the European champion title. Medvedev told that the russian teams are only interested in such a competition.

    The main concerns with this plan are that
    1.) the Europen leagues will lose their top teams.
    2.) the selected top teams will not win as much in the spectator numbers as much more they might pay in the pan-european league.
    3.) the selected top teams and their fans will lose their traditional derby matches

    I think all of the above concerns are right and justified, and the KHL proposal can not answer them.

    What I do not understand, is, why do KHL want to decide on the format how the rest of Europe will select its best team which might compete against the KHL champion. I can completely live with the way how KHL works in Russia, I really do not care. And I think it should be completely irrelevant for the KHL and its champion that the rest of Europe will compete on a qualification basis. The two best teams will in any case meet at the end only. And this is of course give a main advantage for KHL since their best will be in the finals in any case, without any justification (fixed place for KHL champion in the finals - why?).

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerusz View Post
    And this is of course give a main advantage for KHL since their best will be in the finals in any case, without any justification (fixed place for KHL champion in the finals - why?).
    To avoid national Russian embarrassment when the Champions League final is between two non-Russian teams. And to give them a 50% chance at a European championship every year.

    Which, to an extent is understandable as the KHL has a product to market and protect, whereas the rest of Europe just wants good competition.

    It's the money v.s. sport battle we see all the time.

  38. #88
    IHF Member itry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerusz View Post
    And this is of course give a main advantage for KHL since their best will be in the finals in any case, without any justification (fixed place for KHL champion in the finals - why?).
    Well you could look at it differently. As, let's say, "East European" qualification round where countries like Latvia, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan (assuming that no other club from those countries are present and Slovakia and Czech republic use teams from domestic leagues) find the strongest team among themselves and the winner faces off with the winner of the Western Europe. Certainly some kind of sports related reasoning can be found. Then again I would not like that since probably no other club than Russian would come out of it as a winner in a rather long time.
    Taro Tsujimoto, the greatest NHL player ever!

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