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Thread: Champions League back in action in 2010-11?

  1. #251
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    IHWC

    The IIHF just announced that the Champions Hockey League is dead:
    http://www.iihf.com/nc/home-of-hocke...scratched.html

    Sad news. The CHL was really great.

  2. #252
    IHF Member Alessandro Seren Rosso's Avatar
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    I agree with the very last phrase of the article:

    "As a result of today’s decision, millions of Euros will not be invested in European club ice hockey.”

    Congrats to all the ones who never wanted a CHL. Thank you!!
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  3. #253
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    Switzerland

    http://forums.internationalhockey.ne...ilies/c186.gif

    sad... the CHL was really exciting. Too bad that this will not have a future. I think the only hope now is that something can grow due to private initiatives such as from the SpenglerCup or similar... but I don't really think that if something can be created can be as well done as CHL was.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by CeneriBears View Post
    http://forums.internationalhockey.ne...ilies/c186.gif

    sad... the CHL was really exciting. Too bad that this will not have a future. I think the only hope now is that something can grow due to private initiatives such as from the SpenglerCup or similar... but I don't really think that if something can be created can be as well done as CHL was.
    sad... sad... sad......

  5. #255
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennison View Post
    Expressen reports that the clubs in Sweden has turned down the deal for CHL along with clubs in other unnamed countries.
    Tack saa mycket, Sverige.

  6. #256
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Couldn't the IIHF just do it without the Swedes? And then, when it takes off and is a good source of income, and the Swedes want to take part, the IIHF could tell them nicely what to go do with themselves. If it were up to me entirely, I'd punish them for it, too, say not let Swedish NT play international tournaments for a couple years...

  7. #257
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    Aghhh! This is indeed sad news. I'm frustrated that Sweden turned it down. While it wasn't "perfect" the CHL was an exciting and entertaining high-level european club hockey tournament that had good exposure, and without it, as a previous thread mentioned, millions of euros which could have helped the sport are now lost.

  8. #258
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    What will it take for heads to roll at IIHF. They are suppose to be governing body of the game globally. They were practically begging the NHL publically to allow players in the olympics in 2014. They did little or nothing to stop the civil war in uk ice hockey and allow conflicts of interest at IHUK. What is the money paid on all these ITC cards going towards.

    IIHF are symbolically the governing body of ice hockey but they are too weak too European centred they are truly out of touch with the game globally. How about all the leagues in Europe get together and talk about a competition and cut out the greedy middle men who are incompetent at IIHF.


    What will happen with the Victoria cup is gone now? Maybe just get a challenge match between NHL and KHL.

  9. #259
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Sad......

  10. #260
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    Rene Fasel was giving an interview to the Swiss "20 Minuten online":
    http://www.20min.ch/sport/eishockey/...ehen--13270390
    According to Fasel, the IIHF had investors that would have guaranteed 15 million (Swiss francs) for the next 3 years. However, 4 leagues (Swiss, Swedish, Finnish and Czech) refused to participate. As one of the reasons he gives the relatively long commitment of 9 years that was asked from the leagues.

  11. #261
    IHF Member BoltStripes's Avatar
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    Are the top leagues going to participate in the Continental Cup next year or nothing at all?

  12. #262
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    It will be hard to create a new CHL so long as the big leagues in Europe are so strong. Its the curse of hockey and of course a blessing to....for Sweden teams both money and prestige have been way bigger in the national league.

    IIHF will be weaker and weaker, its only a matter of time before we have a new multi-nation league in Europe with teams from Sweden, Finland, Germany and likely from Czech.Republic and Switzerland to. Something will happen very sone.

  13. #263
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Those four leagues, I don't understand their point of view. What the f... do they have against the CHL? What have they got to lose? There's potentially so much to gain...

  14. #264
    IHF Member Alessandro Seren Rosso's Avatar
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    I'm not surprised by Finns and Swedes rejecting, but I am very surprised that Switzeland and Czech Republic refused. Am I the only one?
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  15. #265
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    Those four leagues, I don't understand their point of view. What the f... do they have against the CHL? What have they got to lose? There's potentially so much to gain...
    They felt that the deal ran for a too long period, constricting their other options for international league play, a pet project for some Swedish clubs for a couple of years now.

    As I understand it the deal was for 3+6 years, with apparently pretty hard terms for cancelling after three years. Swedish clubs did not want to commit to this for such a long period of time.
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

  16. #266
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    I think that clubs and leagues simply lost faith in IIHF. The organisation who failed to keep up with its own publicly announced plans after only a single season, can't be trusted.

    We all remember the oomph during the opening season and we also do remember how everything collapsed with the lame excuses about the lack of sponsors etc, with virtually no action whatsoever by IIHF to offer some kind backup solution.

    So, why would European clubs and leagues believe the same organisation led by same men who now claim how they secured sponsors and everything if only clubs commit themselves for nine years.

    I am sad that CHL is dead, but the people responsible sit in Switzerland.

  17. #267
    IHF Member kun's Avatar
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    Greed and short sightedness is why hockey is a joke some times. This confirms the IIHF are a bunch of cowards.

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    those leagues just don't seem to have an interest of growing the game in Europe. I think if you asked the decision-makers in Finland, Sweden, the Czech Republic and Switzerland they would argue that the sport works on their national professional club level. So in their view the status quo is a success. They don't want to risk that status quo by playing extra games that might not fit their schedule by having to commit to send one of their precious teams to that tournament to play a few extra games. They are not able to harmonize their schedules because they are not willing to give up even the slightest amount of power to an international body.

    I think there is an underlying, more subconscious reasoning also: Any success of a european-wide tournament might help to grow the game elsewhere maybe even in non-traditional hockey countries that potentially offer much bigger market-opportunities than the likes of Jönköping, Lappeenranta or Rapperswil. Success elsewhere could mean decreased significance of the respective home-product.

    It's some sort of european hockey xenophobia. it's short sighted but it's the sad reality.

  19. #269
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    A slim glimpse of hope is that in their press release HockeyEurope said that they're going to continue looking at options for a future pan-european club competition.

    Hopefully they are planning something. Maybe the negotiations just failed because they want to start something without the iihf. But i've kinda given up hope.

  20. #270
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    I don't know, I think a fixed pan-Euro league where the teams are known year-in year-out is not interesting. I think KHL is great for ex-USSR, and I think EBEL and Mol Liga are good for ex-Austria-Hungary and Balkans. But a superleague, no... I think the football-style Champions Cup would be most interesting.

    Buuut, the big Swedish clubs are probably worried "Oh shit, no good, what if Slavia Sofia or Partizan comes here to play, we'll only sell 50 tickets"...

    Man, I'm starting to get completely revolted by hockey (off-ice).

  21. #271
    IHF Member kun's Avatar
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    Canadians have given much to the world of hockey and sacrificed much in terms of competitiveness.

    We've helped develop Switzerland, brought the game to Russia, helped the proud Swedes with their development a few year ago, improved our game with the Americans all at the cost of losing our status. We don't even have our own league with enough teams to cheer a championship and so on.

    This disgusts me that these leagues that bailed out don't have the balls to step up and do what's right at the cost of their own ego.

  22. #272
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by germanhere View Post
    I think there is an underlying, more subconscious reasoning also: Any success of a european-wide tournament might help to grow the game elsewhere maybe even in non-traditional hockey countries that potentially offer much bigger market-opportunities than the likes of Jönköping, Lappeenranta or Rapperswil. Success elsewhere could mean decreased significance of the respective home-product.
    I don't think that is it, the teams are already working towards a pan-European league potentially with teams from all the major European hockey countries. The issue is about control. A successful Champions League controlled by IIHF would compete with their idea about a club-controlled European league.
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

  23. #273
    IHF Member Pršljen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kun View Post
    Canadians have given much to the world of hockey and sacrificed much in terms of competitiveness.

    We've helped develop Switzerland, brought the game to Russia, helped the proud Swedes with their development a few year ago, improved our game with the Americans all at the cost of losing our status. We don't even have our own league with enough teams to cheer a championship and so on.

    This disgusts me that these leagues that bailed out don't have the balls to step up and do what's right at the cost of their own ego.

    Interesting...

  24. #274
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Prsljen: whether directly or indirectly, it's true, since the game was invented in Canada...

  25. #275
    IHF Member Pršljen's Avatar
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    In Kun's post it was said in unapropiate way.Canadians invented modern hockey but them bringing it to Russia is little over rated.
    Russia and Canada are two different worlds in hockey terms.

  26. #276
    IHF Member kun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pršljen View Post
    In Kun's post it was said in unapropiate way.Canadians invented modern hockey but them bringing it to Russia is little over rated.
    Russia and Canada are two different worlds in hockey terms.
    Correction.

    I meant to say Canada brought hockey to Czechoslovakian country, Mike Buckna, who was born in Canada. Technically though I'm correct, The Germans "brought" over Canadian hockey to introduce it to the Soviets. The Soviets were influenced by Canadian and Czech hockey. It has to start somewhere, you don't just invent the wheel, your told how to begin the process, so my point stands with the Canadians influencing Soviet hockey.

    If you want to get into that conversation you can read this thread here (which goes to show that the whole conversation is rather pointless). I already know enough hockey history, I don't need to argue it and your point goes beyond the point I'm trying to make what this thread is about.

    To touch up on the American comment. Our coaches, our players, our institutions and our consultation to the Americans over the decades have our footprint there somewhere.

    Why can't these European Leagues, help their smaller brothers out? Because they're scared they're going to lose a strong footing they already have.

    For those who want to read on Russian and Czech history since it's been discussed here. I have these two sites bookmarked for ages:
    Russian Hockey History.

    Czech hockey history

  27. #277
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    Its not so bad Kun. l Think something good will happen sone in European club hockey. The big problem are not the SEL, SML, NLA and CEL its IIHF.

    I think we sone will see a new league structure in Europe and it will strength the development of hockey on the continent. The most vital thing to do if hockey shall grow stronger in Europe is to strength the hockey in Germany. Germany most develop to a top nation. Its the key.

  28. #278
    IHF Member Spitfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Its not so bad Kun. l Think something good will happen sone in European club hockey. The big problem are not the SEL, SML, NLA and CEL its IIHF.

    I think we sone will see a new league structure in Europe and it will strength the development of hockey on the continent. The most vital thing to do if hockey shall grow stronger in Europe is to strength the hockey in Germany. Germany most develop to a top nation. Its the key.
    Why Germany ?
    2011/2012. - 50th Anniversary of KHL Medveščak Zagreb !

  29. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouellette View Post
    Why Germany ?
    Its the larges country in EU and have the biggest economic market in all of Europe. And the most important thing of it all the country are already familiar with hockey. You have a big economic market with 82 million people. So Germany are the key stone for hockey development in Europe.

    Its fun(and good) if Belarus,Denmark, Latvia, Austria, Croatia, Slovenia and so on develops to top nations but if Germany develops to a top hockey nation it will have a real impact for the sport. The big problem for hockey in EU are its the smaller nations sport and the smaller nations have smaller markets.

    To gain in strength and interest the sport must be strong in big nations like Germany, GB, France and Italy. And Germany are the biggest of this giants and the only one of this nations hockey have a strong position.

    German hockey have a real opportunity to grow to a powerhouse if only the nation can develop to a top nation in hockey. They have it all, the only thing Germany lacks is to have a top national team. So if Germany develop to a top hockey nation hockey will grow to a much bigger sport in Europe. Germany can play the same roll for hockey in Europe as United States do in North America.
    Last edited by Eric; 10-03-2010 at 21:19.

  30. #280
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Its not so bad Kun. l Think something good will happen sone in European club hockey. The big problem are not the SEL, SML, NLA and CEL its IIHF.
    I wouldn't be so quick to call the IIHF the biggest problem - at least as far as the topic of this thread is concerned, the CHL - ahead of the four leagues that caused it to die. The IIHF has many, many problems as well, which all need addressing, but as far as the CHL goes, it is directly these four leagues - I think, especially SEL - who are to take all blame for this failure.

    A pan-European league as e.g. the SEL would want would not *nearly* help the minor countries develop hockey, as much as the CHL would help. Are the Swedes, Finns, Swiss, Czechs really that afraid of hockey improving in Bulgaria or Iceland? Or are they just incredibly greedy, greedy enough that they'd happily hinder the development of hockey in minor countries?

    It is also phenomenally short-sighted of them not to commit to this. Of course it won't happen overnight! The IIHF was right, IMO (in this case anyways), CHL needs a long-term commitment in order to make it successful. And it could be successful, a hockey equivalent of the UEFA Champions League... but MODO doesn't want maybe to have to play against Steaua. Oh, I'll feel sorry for them when I have nothing better to do.

    The SEL bitches about how the NHL behaves... yet they themselves behave the same arrogant way! (Just on different subjects).

    The sad part, from my point of view, is that there's no consequence that these four leagues can be forced to suffer, for their wilful harming of continental hockey's development in the lesser countries...

  31. #281
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    But CHL will never be a league for the minor nations, I cant see CHL will be any help to develop hockey in country's like Iceland, Bulgaria and so on. At best GB, Denmark and Norway will have a team in the league. CHL is a Cup for the big and already strong nations. And yes its sad the strong top nation cant play for the European crown but SEL and the rest of the top leagues cant promises to go a long for nine years.

    The structure of European top club hockey will change in the years to come. The federation will lose the last control of the top teams and we will see some new league structure in a near future.

  32. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    I wouldn't be so quick to call the IIHF the biggest problem - at least as far as the topic of this thread is concerned, the CHL - ahead of the four leagues that caused it to die. The IIHF has many, many problems as well, which all need addressing, but as far as the CHL goes, it is directly these four leagues - I think, especially SEL - who are to take all blame for this failure.

    A pan-European league as e.g. the SEL would want would not *nearly* help the minor countries develop hockey, as much as the CHL would help. Are the Swedes, Finns, Swiss, Czechs really that afraid of hockey improving in Bulgaria or Iceland? Or are they just incredibly greedy, greedy enough that they'd happily hinder the development of hockey in minor countries?

    It is also phenomenally short-sighted of them not to commit to this. Of course it won't happen overnight! The IIHF was right, IMO (in this case anyways), CHL needs a long-term commitment in order to make it successful. And it could be successful, a hockey equivalent of the UEFA Champions League... but MODO doesn't want maybe to have to play against Steaua. Oh, I'll feel sorry for them when I have nothing better to do.

    The SEL bitches about how the NHL behaves... yet they themselves behave the same arrogant way! (Just on different subjects).

    The sad part, from my point of view, is that there's no consequence that these four leagues can be forced to suffer, for their wilful harming of continental hockey's development in the lesser countries...
    I'm not sure in that - IIHF once organised CHL with the nice visions and perspective of becoming bigger in few years. Then they had to cancel it after the first season, mostly because they were not careful enough to make binding contracts - Gazprom stepped out and the fundaments disappeared at once. After that it is not easy to force the clubs into a 3+6 years deal by the very same persons... Drax has right, the clubs do not trust anymore in IIHF. And maybe they also do not trust in the russian partners.

  33. #283
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Idiocy from all sides.

    This about the CHL not being for the minor nations is nonsense too... why can't they follow the proven path laid by football? Even if just a single simple thing like the older-style Champions' Cup or Cup Winners' Cup? This was the long-term vision, as I understand...

    I don't trust you, you don't trust him, he doesn't trust me... and nothing gets done. SEL et al helped to kill the first edition of the competition by not taking it seriously, they've killed the new attempt before it got anywhere, purely through greed and not giving a damn about /hockey/, just about their own pockets. Which, sure, is a valid concern, but only to a degree... this is short-sighted greed.

    That said, I would much rather see no international club competitions at all, than a single European superleague that squelches out all the national leagues and relegates them to second tier status, if they survive even as serious leagues...

  34. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    Idiocy from all sides.

    This about the CHL not being for the minor nations is nonsense too... why can't they follow the proven path laid by football? Even if just a single simple thing like the older-style Champions' Cup or Cup Winners' Cup? This was the long-term vision, as I understand...
    ..
    Yes the best thing from the start had been if IIHF had develop ECC. If they had develop it to a 8 team contest and let the teams play QF, SF and finals in best of two it could have turned out fine. And they could have 250.000 swiss franc for QF, 500.000 for SF, 750.000 for final and 1.000.000 to the winner. All 3,75 million swiss franc and not so hard to find sponsors to and only 6 games to win it. So it had worked out fine.

    The big problem with CHL was they start it up way to big. If they instead had develop ECC we still have had a European champion crowned every year.

    If you start up a CHL like IIHF you must have secured your sponsors for a long time, IIHF did not and everything was lost after Gazprom left as main sponsor.

    My personal feeling is Gazprom lost its interest because wrong team won. If a Russian team had won I think they have stayed now the prefer to put all the money on KHL instead.

    The big question to ask IIHF is how they can be so stupid to start up CHL with out a long term main sponsor. If IIHF have done a good and solid work from the start we have had a strong European Championship to day but IIHF have faild big two times, first with EHL and now with CHL.

    So I think its time for the European top clubs to create something with out IIHF. It cant be worse. Its looks promising for the Nordic Trophy, the teams from Finland will comeback this year and it looks like both Germans and Czech teams will join, so it will this year be more of a European Trophy. Its better to have a strong European club tournament in August/September before the national leagues starts.

  35. #285
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Here's how I see it... and this is still a possibility, I hope, in some format somewhere.

    Continental Cup: everyone short of the Top 7 European Nations (according to IIHF ranking). Run it as-is, with the 8th-ranked nation's champion as host of the final group, and the remaining three spots are qualified for in the current CC format.

    ECC: Top 7 European Nations' champions, plus the winner of the CC. Exactly as Eric described it.

    There you go, you now have a Champions' tournament where every nation's champion has a chance to compete for the European title.
    Winner plays Stanley Cup champion for the Victoria Cup (ok, the SC champion is me wishing).

  36. #286
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    Ria, You seem to have a lot of hostility directed towards the SEL. The situation that we're in, if you remember, took place because the IIHF was not able to sustain one year of the CHL. And if three other leagues also didn't sign (I doubt they did it to follow Sweden's example) clearly the issue isn't one of just SEL stubborness. Was it not the KHL who has pursued its own plans for a pan-european league. And haven't other nations pursued options in the name of their best interest? While the Elitserien frustrates me on a constant basis, one sure way to win over the Swedes, as well as the other nations, is to present a solid, viable plan and stick to your word. I'm not sure to what degree this is the IIHF's fault but this pointless crap is just hurting hockey and it will just stay and reside in the shadows of the European sports fans consciousness.

    Ugh, I'm getting depressed just typing this


    100th post! Kind of sad it has to be on this

  37. #287
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    SEL et al helped to kill the first edition of the competition by not taking it seriously,
    I don't think this is a fair assessment. Swedish teams actually cared about European Club hockey for the first time in a very long time and were very disappointed when the second season was cancelled.

    Sure, they overestimated their own strength, underestimated their opponents and generally underachieved, but it felt to me like they took it seriously.
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

  38. #288
    IHF Member kun's Avatar
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    I see what the people are saying too. The fact that the IIHF cancelled the second season, means it's hard to invest into something so long term. Perhaps if there was a 3 year dedicated plan instead of a 9 year commitment. Arguably, also, for all the talk the IIHF does, when it came down to doing something good, they never pulled it off. Hence, you have one season of hockey gone in the dust.

  39. #289
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    Speaking of those "millions lost to European hockey": It is not only the potential sponsors for the CHL, also AIK apparently had little difficulty to raise a budget suitable for the KHL. Now after they are denied that by the Swedish Hockey Federation, they say it will be difficult to raise the money for the Swedish league. And Hradec Kralove seem to be confident to find sponsor for a 15 million Euro budget to play in the KHL, which is much more than any other czech hockey club.

    So it seems that there are indeed enough sponsors that are willing to spend millions on European hockey. It is really a pity the the national federations are so unwilling to move the game in Europe to a next level. That they are afraid of teams joining the KHl I can partly understand, but blocking the CHL is really narrow-minded.

  40. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Its the larges country in EU and have the biggest economic market in all of Europe. And the most important thing of it all the country are already familiar with hockey. You have a big economic market with 82 million people. So Germany are the key stone for hockey development in Europe.

    Its fun(and good) if Belarus,Denmark, Latvia, Austria, Croatia, Slovenia and so on develops to top nations but if Germany develops to a top hockey nation it will have a real impact for the sport. The big problem for hockey in EU are its the smaller nations sport and the smaller nations have smaller markets.

    To gain in strength and interest the sport must be strong in big nations like Germany, GB, France and Italy. And Germany are the biggest of this giants and the only one of this nations hockey have a strong position.

    German hockey have a real opportunity to grow to a powerhouse if only the nation can develop to a top nation in hockey. They have it all, the only thing Germany lacks is to have a top national team. So if Germany develop to a top hockey nation hockey will grow to a much bigger sport in Europe. Germany can play the same roll for hockey in Europe as United States do in North America.
    I agree that hockey in Germany has a lot of potential but as long as delusional amateurs are running the DEL and the DEB nothing is going to change. When it comes to the decision makers in hockey Germany has a serious problem of a lack of professionalism.

    The remaining fans and the media (the little part of the media that writes about hockey) have been demanding changes for ages now and nothing happened. Due to the foreseeable bankruptcy of the Kassel Huskies and the Kölner Haie (once the european club with the highest attandance) and bad refereeing that disallows any kind of physical play in the DEL the fans have started a protesting campaign. it's called "RIP german hockey": http://www.spieltag58.de/index.html
    Last edited by germanhere; 11-03-2010 at 15:48.

  41. #291
    IHF Member Bennison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Speaking of those "millions lost to European hockey": It is not only the potential sponsors for the CHL, also AIK apparently had little difficulty to raise a budget suitable for the KHL.
    Apparently they were going to be fincancially supported by KHL. AIK Hockey is on the verge of bankruptcy, and saw KHL as a life line.
    Cum bibam cervisiam gaudeo.

  42. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennison View Post
    Apparently they were going to be fincancially supported by KHL. AIK Hockey is on the verge of bankruptcy, and saw KHL as a life line.
    I am not entirely sure, but I don't think the KHL would have supported AIK directly. Maybe they helped them finding Russian sponsors?

    However, the KHL would have supported the CHL, also financially. This at least they claim in their official statement:
    KHL, having expressed its willingness to guarantee the participation of its best teams in the Champions League as well as to provide financial support to the tournament, is disappointed with the position of the national federations and leagues that do not support re-launching of the tournament. (http://en.khl.ru/news/2010/3/10/23811.html)

  43. #293
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    the only good thing is ZSC is chl-champion for a long time! :) i miss the chl! it was a fantastic league! and the victoria-cup was one of my greatest moments in the Hallenstadion... R.I.P CHL :)

  44. #294
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    victoria cup change to a tournament... is that true?

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