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Thread: The Cronuck Case: On the Issue of Naturalised National Team Players

  1. #51
    IHF Member jaaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veghist View Post
    There are quite a few.
    Vaszjunyin was born here I believe, speaks Hungarian like me and never played abroad, but I might be wrong. Holeczy was born in the USA, to Hungarian parents, came to play in Hungary and settled here. Speaks Hungarian with a funny accent. Sille Tamás is Hungarian born in Slovakia (I will never consider Hungarians born in Slovakia or Romania foreign)
    You are right, Ondrejcik have no Hungarian roots, if I'm right, he just lives here for ages, the same applies to Dubek. Sikorcin's mother is Hungarian, and so are Nathan Marz's grandparents and fiancée. They all lived in Hungary years before they applied for citizenship, and (except for those of Romania and Slovakia) and it took them years to get it. (unfortunately our bureaucracy is quite unmoved by sport's interests.) And none of these guys are star players, ex-NHL or got payed for being Hungarian, though the prospect of playing in the national team must have been quite attractive too if you are unlikely to get selected in your donor country.
    Bottomline: you are right. Somewhat.
    I really don´t want to get into any ethnical discussion here, my point is that those players grew up in non-Hungarian (foreign hockey systems undepending on their ethnicity.

    Ans just like you might not consider Hungarians in Romania or Slovakia foreign (despite that I know a few who consider themselves to be Slovak above Hungarian here and most others that I know consider themselves to be both Slovak (citizens and Hungarian (ethnically0, from my experience this is the view that most educated Slovak Hungarians or students seem to have0, most Croatians don´t consider the Cronucks foreign as well.

    Btw I thought that Ondrejčík´s mom is an ethnic Hungarian...
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaaa View Post
    I really don´t want to get into any ethnical discussion here, my point is that those players grew up in non-Hungarian (foreign hockey systems undepending on their ethnicity.

    Ans just like you might not consider Hungarians in Romania or Slovakia foreign (despite that I know a few who consider themselves to be Slovak above Hungarian here and most others that I know consider themselves to be both Slovak (citizens and Hungarian (ethnically0, from my experience this is the view that most educated Slovak Hungarians or students seem to have0, most Croatians don´t consider the Cronucks foreign as well.

    Btw I thought that Ondrejčík´s mom is an ethnic Hungarian...
    Gee, I didn't know that... One learns every day. I believe, that ethnicity and maternal language should be the the key factor. I happen to know a Transsylvanian boy who was selected into the national team after getting the citizenship (he never played for Romania, because he counted on this option) I asked him what it was like listening to the anthem. He said: You have no idea.

  3. #53
    IHF Member jaaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veghist View Post
    Gee, I didn't know that... One learns every day. I believe, that ethnicity and maternal language should be the the key factor. I happen to know a Transsylvanian boy who was selected into the national team after getting the citizenship (he never played for Romania, because he counted on this option) I asked him what it was like listening to the anthem. He said: You have no idea.
    You can´t really judge everyone by one person. Some people have stronger feelings to the land of their maternal language, some weaker.

    I just find your quote that you will never consider them foreigners funny cuz we refer to Slovaks living outside of Slovakia, I mean peopel with Slovak roots like the 50.000 in Vojvodina "zahraničný Slováci", which might pretty much be translated as "foreign Slovaks". And the way they lived in Serbia os no different from the Hungarians living in Slovakia having lived there for centuries now.

    Btw, I don´t know whether you have a lot of opportunities to talk with Slovak Hungarians or whether you´re mainly limited to Hungarian politicians and media. But reently I´ve heard Béla Bugár, whom I consider one of the most imported personalities of the Hungarian community in Slovakia, as he is very well respected amongst most Slovaks as well life one interesting quote: "I believe that our problems shold be solved between the Hungarian community and the Slovak majority. Not by the Hungarian politicians (meaning HUN politicians from Hungary" Ok, it´s only paraphrased, but it was something like that...

    Sorry, for this off-topic.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaaa View Post
    You can´t really judge everyone by one person. Some people have stronger feelings to the land of their maternal language, some weaker.

    I just find your quote that you will never consider them foreigners funny cuz we refer to Slovaks living outside of Slovakia, I mean peopel with Slovak roots like the 50.000 in Vojvodina "zahraničný Slováci", which might pretty much be translated as "foreign Slovaks". And the way they lived in Serbia os no different from the Hungarians living in Slovakia having lived there for centuries now.

    Btw, I don´t know whether you have a lot of opportunities to talk with Slovak Hungarians or whether you´re mainly limited to Hungarian politicians and media. But reently I´ve heard Béla Bugár, whom I consider one of the most imported personalities of the Hungarian community in Slovakia, as he is very well respected amongst most Slovaks as well life one interesting quote: "I believe that our problems shold be solved between the Hungarian community and the Slovak majority. Not by the Hungarian politicians (meaning HUN politicians from Hungary" Ok, it´s only paraphrased, but it was something like that...

    Sorry, for this off-topic.
    I agree it is the politicians. I even understand that a "new" country sometimes overcompensates, it is natural. Funny, and off topic in this off topic, that a guy I know from Galanta told me how shocked he felt when he discovered in elementary school that he lives in Slovakia, and not in Hungary.... But for me it is funny in a bizarre way. Varietas delictat, right?

  5. #55
    IHF Member jaaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veghist View Post
    I agree it is the politicians. I even understand that a "new" country sometimes overcompensates, it is natural. Funny, and off topic in this off topic, that a guy I know from Galanta told me how shocked he felt when he discovered in elementary school that he lives in Slovakia, and not in Hungary.... But for me it is funny in a bizarre way. Varietas delictat, right?
    Yeah, that is pretty bizzare, especially considering that Galanta is a mixed town with a Sloak majority of 60%, lol did he never have a Slovak friend to tell him?

    It´s true that many of our politicians feel the need to go back in history long before the Slavs living in what today is Slovakia were considered Slovaks, which most probably was 10-11th century and even longer before modern nations, both Hungarian and Slovaks were born in 2nd part of 18th century. Very few people realize that until then in the Hungarian kingdom the educated peopel spoke Latin and later German and it didn´t matter whether they were Slovak, Hungarian, Romanian or whatever rather whether they were arrictocracy or field-folk. There are those 50 years of magyarization, but that was a long time ago and there were some reasons why the Hungarians did it, because they were faced by the fact that the Hungarians would be a minority compared to the Slavic majority in the kingdom in the future. In the end the Hungarians paid a lot for that 50 years with the development after WW I.

    On the other hand, it´s not like many Hungarian politicians don´t feel the need to "overcomensate" for the great Trianon trauma as well.

    Nothing is only black and white. And it´s not like there are either the bad bad Slovaks and the good good Hungarians or the bad bad Magyars and good good Slovaks. There only are good people and evil people and I really cease to see any importance of what ethnicity/nationality they are.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XWGm1MWpA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUN_R...eature=related

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  6. #56
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pršljen View Post
    Medveščak's "Cronucks" had big connection with Croatia before they knew that they'll play for Croatia and I'm 100% sure that they always felt more like Croats than Canadians.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    Of the part in bold, I'm 98% sure you're wrong. They might have had a connection with Croatia, but being born and raised in Canada, I'm quite sure that they grew up feeling far more Canadian than Croatian.
    I know that while I feel a connection with Hungary (since both of my grandparents came to Canada from there), I feel far more Canadian than Hungarian.
    I think either can be true. I was born in Canada and spent almost all my life here (1 year in Hungary in 1979/80 as a 4 year old)... yet I have until very recently - past three or four years - felt myself first Hungarian, and Canadian only a distant second. "On paper only" as I used to describe it - just an accident of my parents having come here 2 months before I was born. Hell, I felt more connection to France, where my parents lived for a year after leaving Hungary and before coming to Canada.

    If I had ever had the choice between playing for either Canada or Hungary, I'd have went to the red-white-green without a second thought. Nowadays? Different question. ;)

    I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Canadian citizen who feels/felt like this.

  7. #57
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    i wonder why some of the names on the israeli roster are sayd to be playing in israel but when you look them up on the internet there names come on a diffrent team..?

  8. #58
    IHF Member WHawks's Avatar
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    I assume that's because the Israeli season isn't played during the same period as their main club, so they can participate in both leagues.

  9. #59
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    WHawks, that's not true. The Israeli season is played through the same time period as teh rest of the northern hemisphere.

    Which does make one wonder: How can Daniel Spivak play for both Haifa in Israel, and the Rochester Institute of Technology in the USA at the same time...?
    Or, for that matter, Eli Sherbatov with Metulla and Montreal (QMJHL) simultaneously.

    Both players have represented Israel in the past, so eligibility might not be the first question that comes to mind. But the question should be raised IMO about the accuracy of the information given by the Israeli federation to the IIHF prior to the tournament, and whether there should be any follow-up actions by the IIHF in this case.
    Good question, D-man. perhaps one of our Israeli members can clear this up.

    I'm sure this isn't the first time that apparent "fudging" of club affiliation has happened, but I agree that if discovered, it's never a bad idea to bring it forward.

  10. #60
    IHF Member WHawks's Avatar
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    That is indeed very interesting then...
    Looking back on the IIHF site for previous WC's for Spivak, it's been going on not only this season but as long as he's played in North America, initially for Stouffville Spirit, must be a reasonable explanation though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHawks View Post
    That is indeed very interesting then...
    Looking back on the IIHF site for previous WC's for Spivak, it's been going on not only this season but as long as he's played in North America, initially for Stouffville Spirit, must be a reasonable explanation though.
    The same with bulgarian Alexei Yotov. Year after year, he is Vityaz Chekhov player on IIHF rosters. In fact, he is player of Gazovik RegionGazHolding, this team participate in competition called "The Ice Hockey Championship of fuel and energy companies".

  12. #62
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    IIHF, please take notice....

  13. #63
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Every year we have people coming into threads where Israel is involved and trying to stir up trouble.

    I am going to make this clear.........every player playing in this tournament for Israel has been cleared by the IIHF. In addition, a good number of these players do not play in the Israeli league, and have not done so in a very long time, yet they still remain registered with Israeli clubs despite not playing for them any longer.

    In fact, certain Israeli players who do still play in the Israeli league are showing as being registered for clubs they don't even play for. A prime example is Avihu Sorotzky, the starting goalie. He plays for Maalot, and just won the Israeli League championship with that club, but is listed by the Israeli federation as being with Metulla. The Israeli federation's record keeping is terrible, and always has been, sadly enough.

    However, all of the players have been cleared to play by the IIHF.

    Any attempts to stir up trouble in this thread will be deleted, and I will consider further action as well if further attempts persist. This is my first and last warning on the subject.

  14. #64
    IHF Member nzice's Avatar
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    Marc, with all due respect I have seen discussions on eligibility rules / reqts for IIHF tournaments for a number players and countries in Europe, Asia, the Southern Hemisphere countries (not in Asia) and Americas countries.

    As far as I am aware (in recent times) Armenia and Israel are the only two countries that have been pinged by the IIHF for eligibility breaches. I probably see more questions about Armenian's eligibility that any other country, probably because their breach was more recent. I actually find the discussion on eligibility very interesting - NZ has a relatively small population and Ice Hockey is a very minor sport here (perhaps similar to Israel ?) In my families case I have two sons who were born in the UK, but learnt their Hockey in NZ - and so understanding interpretations of IIHF Regs is of interest.

    The Hockey fraternity in NZ, perhaps like Israel wants to see Ice Hockey player base grow and the skill level of players and officials to rise. Gaining international experience is a small part of that. Ensuring that players (and officials) can gain that experience whilst still remaining eligible for their home country is important for most of the individuals.

  15. #65
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Marc, that's fair enough.
    And I'm aware that the players have been cleared. My question was more about the accuracy of information given, which you've answered as far as I'm concerned with respect to Israel.

    Question remains about the apparent gaffe in the Bulgarian roster wrt Yotov's club affiliation.

    Call it mudslinging if you will Marc, but considering the discrepancies mentioned I think the question was a valid one.



    Peter, i saw your son got himself a point in the game vs Israel. Is that his first with the Ice Blacks? If so, congratulations to him.
    Last edited by Steigs; 12-04-2010 at 07:30.

  16. #66
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    Every year we have people coming into threads where Israel is involved and trying to stir up trouble.

    I am going to make this clear.........every player playing in this tournament for Israel has been cleared by the IIHF. In addition, a good number of these players do not play in the Israeli league, and have not done so in a very long time, yet they still remain registered with Israeli clubs despite not playing for them any longer.

    In fact, certain Israeli players who do still play in the Israeli league are showing as being registered for clubs they don't even play for. A prime example is Avihu Sorotzky, the starting goalie. He plays for Maalot, and just won the Israeli League championship with that club, but is listed by the Israeli federation as being with Metulla. The Israeli federation's record keeping is terrible, and always has been, sadly enough.

    However, all of the players have been cleared to play by the IIHF.

    Any attempts to stir up trouble in this thread will be deleted, and I will consider further action as well if further attempts persist. This is my first and last warning on the subject.
    Why? Nobody is against Israel but some rules by Israely Hockey Hederation is realy for wander. Basic problem is that you laugh to some players like Fred Perowne, and in other side everything is clear. How?

    p.s.
    In that way many of players hwo played in Serbia couple of seasons ago (like Mike Walling) and this season is free to take Srb passeport and play for Serbian NT? After his season 2006/7 in Serbia he went to Holland to play for their club (but not was sighned to play for hk Partizan in the same time).

    It's the pity that some real, pure, Serbs can't play for us because of some rules by IIHF, and in other side everithing is possible.

    I'm finished about this.
    Last edited by BASSA; 12-04-2010 at 08:57.
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    Iceland

    stir up trouble? Why have a forum if you can not ask about things? i was simply thinking why wouldn´t the correct information be on there roster?? why put HC Metulla when you are playing for Montreal (QMJHL.....
    Anyways this is not a question about live and death.
    Have a good day everyone..... Go iceland !!!!

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    And here we go again with discussion like last year when the champioship was in Novi Sad...

    Last year we also have a good discussion about who can play or cant play for national team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    WHawks, that's not true. The Israeli season is played through the same time period as teh rest of the northern hemisphere.

    Which does make one wonder: How can Daniel Spivak play for both Haifa in Israel, and the Rochester Institute of Technology in the USA at the same time...?
    Or, for that matter, Eli Sherbatov with Metulla and Montreal (QMJHL) simultaneously.

    Both players have represented Israel in the past, so eligibility might not be the first question that comes to mind. But the question should be raised IMO about the accuracy of the information given by the Israeli federation to the IIHF prior to the tournament, and whether there should be any follow-up actions by the IIHF in this case.
    Good question, D-man. perhaps one of our Israeli members can clear this up.

    I'm sure this isn't the first time that apparent "fudging" of club affiliation has happened, but I agree that if discovered, it's never a bad idea to bring it forward.
    I think eligibility is absolutely good question. It was the same problem with Daniel Ehrlich - played apparently for Metulla and Canadian team during virtually the same time and is still eligible for Team Israel even though he probably never played 2 continuous years in Israel. I really can't understand why eligibility rules are different for Israel than for other countries.

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    ....
    Last edited by roki; 12-04-2010 at 14:41.

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    see post #89
    Last edited by Marc Brunengraber; 12-04-2010 at 16:15.

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    see post #89
    Last edited by Marc Brunengraber; 12-04-2010 at 16:15.

  23. #73
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, I have no problem with discussing past infractions by Israel, Armenia, etc. (for which they were punished by the IIHF).

    I also have no problem with criticizing a national program.

    There's a way to do it, though. NZ Ice and D-man engage in criticism (or at least questioning) in a respectful tone.

    For example, the "eligibility rules for Israel" are no different than any other IIHF country.

    What I won't tolerate are veiled (or no so veiled) attempts to smear a country or its people.

    There will not be ANY of that at this forum against ANY country or its people.

    One reason this forum is respected in the hockey world is that we don't allow trolls, flame wars, or racial/religious/ethnic hatred, and that policy WILL continue.

    As for my comments on players given Serbian passports even though they are not ethnically Serbian, I've never said it's against IIHF rules, but have expressed my distaste for it (both my opinion of what the Serbian program has done and the IIHF's rules which permit it), with my reasons given at length. In no way did I express hatred for Serbia or Serbian people, because in fact I have no such hatred at all.

    As for comments about Israeli players not being "true" Israelis, we've also discussed that at length, centering around Israel's "Law of Return." This is not political science, geogrpahy or history class, so I won't explain it again. If you still can't understand the United Nations mandate that re-created the State of Israel post World War II, or Israel's Law of Return, then go look them up on Wikipedia if you are so inclined.

    Insofar as the IIHF clearing players, they've looked at Israel very closely since its breach, and all players have since been cleared. I also refer you to the IIHF's "savings clauses" sprinkled throughout its rulebook, which allows the IIHF to suspend or overlook certain of its own rules if enforcing them to the letter would hinder, rather than help, the development of hockey in that country. For example, certain Division I (much less Division II or III) IIHF member countries don't meet national league requirements in terms of the number of teams, number of games per team, etc. Yet the IIHF looks the other way. If it didn't, IIHF membership would be cut instantly by anywhere from 33-50%.
    Last edited by Marc Brunengraber; 12-04-2010 at 16:22.

  24. #74
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    As a follow up, I even defend the idea that ethnic Serbs, Croats, Israelis, etc., who hold citizenship papers to their ancestral country, should be able to play for that country even if they have never competed in that country's league, as long as they have never competed for any other country in IIHF competition. See here:

    http://www.forums.internationalhocke...ead.php?t=9443

    What I am against are mercenaries with no ethnic or other real connection to a country getting citizenship there just to play for that country. Why should John Tripp, a Canadian with no German blood, no German spouse, etc., play for two years in the DHL and then have a right to play for Germany if the Germans decide to grant him citizenship?

    After all, John Tavares has never played for Canada in senior IIHF competition. Under current IIHF rules, he could play in the KHL for two consecutive years, have Russia hand him a passport, and then suit up for Russia in the next Olympics, despite having no Russian blood, not knowing a word of Russian, not being married to a Russian, etc. Does that make sense?

    Why is that rule better than one which would allow someone who is truly a Serb, Croat, Israeli, etc. to play for their ancestral homeland as long as they hold citizenship, even if they weren't trained there or played there for 2 years?

    Now there's a question worthy of discussion. Have at it.

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    O.K. then - IIHF rules are the same for every country but Israel brakes it notoriously and is not punished - name it as you want. I don't think it is any hatred here, just facts and it is totally unfair from you to accuse guys of - as I understand - hidden antisemitism just because they criticise breaking rules. Calm down man, looks like you're a bit nervous because Israel is on the verge of relegation but that's not our fault. Seems like you want to immunise Israel from any criticism using anitsemitism accusation as a weapon of mass destruction every time.

    As for bringing John Tavares case I think it's good to read rules earlier. Under these rules there is no difference between senior and junior IIHF competitions so he has to play 4 years in "new" country before being eligible in case you imagined.

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    Ethnicity (the blood thing) and "true relation" to a certain country are to the big extent arbitrary human constructions that can not be clearly AND generally defined and consequently also not monitored. Any such rule or set of rules trying to implement these things would be doomed from the start for good reasons as it would involve checking peoples ancestry and mindset which is inherently despisable and reminds me of something I don't even want to mention.

    So the only way to go imho is passport plus in the case of someone adopting a new one a certain additional qualification based on the persons objectively measurable affilition to the hockey system of the country in question. This system has loopholes that will give rise to cases that can be questioned with good reasons. But it is the most general and thus fair ule you can find I'm convinced.

    PS: John Tripp must be the delivery guy playing the best hockey in Germany :-)

  27. #77
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Rex, I think ethnicity (i.e., checking the origins of up to two generations back) is easily verified. Obviously, so is citizenship.

    Mate, Israel will likely be relegated this year, absent them pulling it together and beating Iceland and/or China.

    That in no way excuses the constant anti-Israel tone exhibited year in, year out by some posters. Israeli eligibility has been discussed before, and the answers as to eligibility have been given - including in this thread. Therefore, continuing to allege that Israel is breaking rules....when the IIHF doesn't seem to think so......is nothing other than an attempt to create animosity.

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    Marc, i dont understand you...
    Why are you think that we are against Israel and their people..??????

    I have nothing against Israel and his people, and I am 99% sure that every fans from here have nothing against Israel and his people...

    I have a friends of Jewish religion, in our town( Subotica) we have one of greatest and largest synagogue in Serbia and we are not against Jewish people ..100%

    I dont understand you, you always indicated of jewish problems, and this is not thread about Israel or something similar, this is just a thread about ice hockey, and nothing else...

    Please, stop this ridicilous debate, this is just about ice hockey and nothing else...

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    Rex, I think ethnicity (i.e., checking the origins of up to two generations back) is easily verified. .
    No it isn't and much more it SHOULDN'T be done. There are cases in which etnicity is pretty clear cut but that's a possibility and not an necessity. You might get persons for which being attached to several ethnicities or countries could easily be argued and aslo such for which no particular ethnical attachment despite a "migration background" can be argued. Should persons of the former category have more options than others and those of the latter less or none? Furthermore, verifying ancestry might not be easy if not impossible at all. If we are concerned with the equality of rules an ethnicity criterion can not be because it would systematically treat some persons different than others although they shouldn't be.

    Furthermore, conditioning the possibility of a person to represent a country other than that of the peron's birth in international sports events on the persons ancestry is per se discriminatory, ethnocentic and for me clearly violates the basic human right to be treated as a person for one self independently of one's heritage. I have little to no problem with certain countries putting up ethnically discriminating criteria for awarding citizenships (like the GErman ius solis or the Israeli law of return), it's just their business. But the international organisations the international sports governing bodies must follow principles that are based on equality of all persons and thus rule out discriminating along the lines of gender, religion, ethnicity etc.

  30. #80
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Roki, I am not accusing you of anything. I am addressing a subject that gets beaten to death every year when Israel competes in the world Division II's, that has been answered over and over and over and over again. It gets tiresome after awhile.

    I'm pretty sure next year I'll have to address it in a Division III thread absent a surprising win or two over the next few days.

    EVH - thanks for the pics and vids! Very cool.

  31. #81
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Rex -

    You make some points I'd need to mull over.

    In the interim, I still don't like the IIHF's current rules, which allow somebody with basically no connection to a country to play for it, while barring others with a true connection from playing.

    I don't know if there's a perfect answer.

    Think of how ridiculous the current IIHF rules are - a member country can decide that it's "national competition" will be 4 teams that play each other once, over the course of December 30th through January 2nd. Play those three games for one of the clubs, and presto.....you have now competed in an IIHF member country's national competition in two consecutive calendar years without playing elsewhere. Get your citizenship papers, and you're on your way.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    Rex -

    You make some points I'd need to mull over.

    In the interim, I still don't like the IIHF's current rules, which allow somebody with basically no connection to a country to play for it, while barring others with a true connection from playing.

    I don't know if there's a perfect answer.

    Think of how ridiculous the current IIHF rules are - a member country can decide that it's "national competition" will be 4 teams that play each other once, over the course of December 30th through January 2nd. Play those three games for one of the clubs, and presto.....you have now competed in an IIHF member country's national competition in two consecutive calendar years without playing elsewhere. Get your citizenship papers, and you're on your way.
    I agree with you that these rules perimt some players to represent countries although they are just "mercenaries". But the rules that would deter this and are along your proposed lines imho have negative consequences that outweigh the benefit dramatically.
    In that sense I think there is no "perfect" solution.

    But to save the day one more economic argument: For reasonably developped hockey nations the 3 day championship over new year is just not an issue so no reasonably developped country can take advantage of this loophole. Countries in which the hockey system is so low that such a 3 day championship is an option will most likely not be able to attract the mercenaries by any other means than these players' affinity to the country. And even if it could the federation will most likely not be able to organize instant citizenship for them as it will be a low profile organisation without any significant weight in the political system...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RexKramer View Post
    I agree with you that these rules perimt some players to represent countries although they are just "mercenaries". But the rules that would deter this and are along your proposed lines imho have negative consequences that outweigh the benefit dramatically.
    In that sense I think there is no "perfect" solution.

    But to save the day one more economic argument: For reasonably developped hockey nations the 3 day championship over new year is just not an issue so no reasonably developped country can take advantage of this loophole. Countries in which the hockey system is so low that such a 3 day championship is an option will most likely not be able to attract the mercenaries by any other means than these players' affinity to the country. And even if it could the federation will most likely not be able to organize instant citizenship for them as it will be a low profile organisation without any significant weight in the political system...
    I agree with this.

  34. #84
    IHF Member Hockey_Algeria's Avatar
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    i think you should be able to represent the country your parents are from even if you havent played in the country, similar to football.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Brunengraber View Post
    That in no way excuses the constant anti-Israel tone exhibited year in, year out by some posters. Israeli eligibility has been discussed before, and the answers as to eligibility have been given - including in this thread. Therefore, continuing to allege that Israel is breaking rules....when the IIHF doesn't seem to think so......is nothing other than an attempt to create animosity.
    I should point out that the IIHF had not been able to find any specific information to indicate Armenia's eligibility issues in 2006 or 2007, I would argue until our own members managed to dig up some information in 2008.
    So based on that, the IIHF has been shown not to be completely infaillible, and so if anyone does have information or a question regarding a specific player on a team, it is in the interest of fair play to at least bring it out into the open.

    As for your other comment on the 2-year rule, I don't think your interpretation of it is correct. That is to say, your 3-day Dec30-Jan2 concept is flawed.
    Section 205, Subsection 1.6 of the IIHF Statutes & Bylaws states:
    When a player has changed his citizenship or has acquired or has surrendered another
    citizenship and wants to participate for the first time in an IIHF competition and represent
    his new country he must
    a) have an IIHF international transfer card that was approved and dated by the IIHF at
    least two years before the start of the championship in which he wishes to participate,
    and
    b) he must prove that he has participated for at least two consecutive years in the
    national competitions of and resident in his new country during which period he has
    neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey within any other country.
    The part in bold effectively states that the player must play for two consecutive years, that is to say participation in two consecutive hockey seasons, and not in two consecutive calendar years, such as your four-day tournament would indicate.
    The other important part is that the player must prove his residence within the country during that time. I doubt a hotel receipt for a weekend's stay would count for that.

    Subsection 1.7 has effectively the same requirements, dealing instead with:
    When a player has multiple citizenship where the relevant citizenships are for countries of
    member national associations and he has never represented any country in any IIHF
    championship or an Olympic competition or in qualifications to these competitions, then in
    order to play for the country of his choice he must

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey_Algeria View Post
    i think you should be able to represent the country your parents are from even if you havent played in the country, similar to football.
    I'm sure that Graham will comment here on how the application of this approach for the GBR Team using Canadian born hockey players whose parents were British significantly set back the development of Hockey in Britain. Its worth noting the impact over time (years) and the % of overseas developed players had to continue to increase as the impact on local hockey became evident. Britain now has a self imposed rule that a player cannot represent GBR without having played Hockey in the UK (i think) before the age of 16 - even if you were born in Britain. I understand that the application of this rule has helped the development of local hockey in Britain.

    Cross Posting from another post of mine in another topic ..

    The IIHF Principle from http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...and_Bylaws.pdf is worth noting. If you want a competition that isnt about reflecting the status and standard of Ice Hockey of that Nation, but is merely a collection of mercenaries, then be prepared for the impact of the development of Ice Hockey in that country....

    "It is the objective of the IIHF that national teams competing in IIHF championships shall reflect the status and standard of the sport as currently played by citizens of and in the country concerned and to protect the integrity of international competition."Remember that the IIHF

  37. #87
    IHF Member Hockey_Algeria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzice View Post
    I'm sure that Graham will comment here on how the application of this approach for the GBR Team using Canadian born hockey players whose parents were British significantly set back the development of Hockey in Britain. Its worth noting the impact over time (years) and the % of overseas developed players had to continue to increase as the impact on local hockey became evident. Britain now has a self imposed rule that a player cannot represent GBR without having played Hockey in the UK (i think) before the age of 16 - even if you were born in Britain. I understand that the application of this rule has helped the development of local hockey in Britain.

    Cross Posting from another post of mine in another topic ..

    The IIHF Principle from http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...and_Bylaws.pdf is worth noting. If you want a competition that isnt about reflecting the status and standard of Ice Hockey of that Nation, but is merely a collection of mercenaries, then be prepared for the impact of the development of Ice Hockey in that country....

    "It is the objective of the IIHF that national teams competing in IIHF championships shall reflect the status and standard of the sport as currently played by citizens of and in the country concerned and to protect the integrity of international competition."Remember that the IIHF
    Im not familiar with British/Canadian situation, but playing in the UK since i was a kid the only issues with development ive seen is the expenses and late night training times, furthermore any canadians ive played with have improved my development if anything.

    With the Algerians id say about 30% are born in algeria but trained elsewhere, and 70% born elsewhere to algerian parents.

    But i know 100% they consider themselves algerian, have algerian passports, speak the language, practice the religion, eat the food, and do go back when they get the chance. Its all of our dreams to represent algeria and i think we should be allowed.

    The algerian football team which will play in this years world cup is something like 80% french born to algerian parents.

  38. #88
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    I agree with Hockey Algeria on this point. I'd go back and allow those with grandparents from the mother country to represent it, as I previously mentioned.

  39. #89
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Steigs - the rules, as written, would allow for my long weekend scenario bookending two calendar years. Maybe the intent was different, but my scenario would satisfy the rules as they currently are written.

  40. #90
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    Sergei Belo - was born in 1970 in Leningrad, now Sankt - Petersburg
    Repatriated to Israel in ???

    Evgeny Gusin - Born in 1968 in Kazakhstan.
    Repatriated to Israel in 1991

    Artem Korotin - Date of Birth 28/04/1978, Place of birth - Russia Rybinsk Yaroslavl region.
    Repatriated to Israel 07/08/2000.

    Maxim Birbraer Birthyear: 1980-12-15 Birthplace: Ust-Kamenogorsk, KAZ
    Repatriated to Israel in ???

    ... and others.

    Is everybody think that here is everything clear?
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  41. #91
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    Pavel Popravka, Fred McPerowne, Marc Andre Fournier, Daniel Jacob, Murray Cobb, Nikola Bibić.

    If IIHF can tolerate Serbia they can do the same with Israel, no matter what rule is that.

    Croatia has few too, Chovanec, Brumerčik, Glavota.It'll have it even more in the future.

    IIHF rules are obviously the same for everyone and there is no need to mention it anymore.
    Last edited by Pršljen; 15-04-2010 at 10:52.
    Hokej u Hrvatskoj ima svijetlu budućnost SAMO AKO mjerodavni ljudi rade svoj posao kako treba - Pršljen
    Hockey in Croatia has a bright future ONLY IF relevant people do their job right - Pršljen

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by BASSA View Post
    Evgeny Gusin - Born in 1968 in Kazakhstan.
    Repatriated to Israel in 1991
    So we finally have a definitive year of birth for him? Heh heh heh. Ah, the ol' ageless wonder. What's he been up to these past seasons?
    Bringing ice hockey to Northwest China!

    I'm the hole formerly known as KazakhEagles

  43. #93
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pršljen View Post
    Pavel Popravka, Fred McPerowne, Marc Andre Fournier, Daniel Jacob, Murray Cobb, Nikola Bibić.

    If IIHF can tolerate Serbia they can do the same with Israel, no matter what rule is that.

    Croatia has few too, Chovanec, Brumerčik, Glavota.It'll have it even more in the future.

    IIHF rules are obviously the same for everyone and there is no need to mention it anymore.
    But they aren't Serbs (only N.Bibic is the Serb original), they just got passeports of Serbia after 2 full seasons playing domestic Srb league. But if you think that is the same - ok.

    Deference between ours Canadians and Israely "Russians" is that they came 'couse of hockey, no for better conditions of life.

    But, if you beleive in the story that all thoes players from Russia came to Israel 'cause they feel Jew than ok. Only what I claim that is they came to Israel 'cause they (or her parents) have very, very bad life conditions. I'm sure that they didn't know, during his life in Russia, that have 1% Jew's blood.

    But if IIHF think that it's ok than why we speak aboot this theme?
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  44. #94
    IHF Member Pršljen's Avatar
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    All that I'm saying is that rule is same for everyone.
    If Israel can do it, who can prohibit others to do the same?
    Case closed, for me.
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  45. #95
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    Far as I know the "old guard" of Israeli players (Korotin, Gussin, Belo and others) have lived in Israel for years after moving there post-Iron Curtain.
    I do know that those guys were among the earliest players to hit the ice when the first rink opened in Israel, and they were among the earliest members of the Israeli federation. Are you suggesting that the Israeli federation contacted them and brought them to israel just to have them play hockey for the national team?
    BASSA, I can only go by what I've read, but it would seem that millions of people lived in poor conditions in post-Soviet Russia in the early 90s. With the Law of Return in place in Israel, why wouldn't a Jew want to take advantage of it? Or maybe they just felt like they'd be more at home in the Jewish homeland. Who can tell?

    Fact is that the guys you mentioned have lived there for years, and played there for years. There are a couple guys who've played for israel that I would question long before Belo, Gussin and Korotin, believe me.

  46. #96
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    To be blunt, it's a stupid argument, Bassa.

    These guys are Jews by religion, and Russian by nationality.

    They left Russia for Israel like a few million other Russian Jews did once the Iron Curtain collapsed, because they wanted to live in the Jewish homeland - both for cultural/religious reasons (they don't have to worry about anti-Semitism in Israel, and they won't be a minority there) and for economic opportunity. They never even realized that they could still play hockey when they left - they thought their hockey days were dead when they left.

    They are the very opposite of Canadian guys who go play for two years in a country that they have absolutely no connection to other than hockey, and then accept a "passport of convenience" after two years.

    They are the very essence of Jews who make "aliyah" - a permament return to the motherland.

    They are the last people that the IIHF would disqualify.

  47. #97
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    Trim, Gussin still plays goal for Bat-Yam in the Israeli League and lost in the finals this year to Maalot, whom Belo played for this season.

  48. #98
    IHF Member BASSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    Far as I know the "old guard" of Israeli players (Korotin, Gussin, Belo and others) have lived in Israel for years after moving there post-Iron Curtain.
    I do know that those guys were among the earliest players to hit the ice when the first rink opened in Israel, and they were among the earliest members of the Israeli federation. Are you suggesting that the Israeli federation contacted them and brought them to israel just to have them play hockey for the national team?
    BASSA, I can only go by what I've read, but it would seem that millions of people lived in poor conditions in post-Soviet Russia in the early 90s. With the Law of Return in place in Israel, why wouldn't a Jew want to take advantage of it? Or maybe they just felt like they'd be more at home in the Jewish homeland. Who can tell?

    Fact is that the guys you mentioned have lived there for years, and played there for years. There are a couple guys who've played for israel that I would question long before Belo, Gussin and Korotin, believe me
    .
    I agree with you.

    p.s.
    But i'm sportsman, and if you have players, like we spoke about, honestly is to say that we won "some tournament" with guys which are came to Israel, from Russia or Canada. I have wrote that I have nothing about Israel, and they people, 'cause I know what they have through the history (something similar like my people), but why something must be hiden if all we know that without help from outside they will be much-much lower.

    p.s.
    Something more: you have some web sites where player have his biography and how we don't have correct information about those clubs, about where some players born and etc. Why everything must be hiden if all is clear, and arranged with IIHF.

    I have no problem to admit that we have lucky day against Estonians, and that we have in our roster 3 Canadians Fred, Marc and Dan (Popravka and Murray didn't get our passeports). That is fair, or it is better to say that we won tournament with domestic players only?

    Hope that you understand me!
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  49. #99
    IHF Staff Marc Brunengraber's Avatar
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    There's nothing hidden about what Serbia did, and also nothing wrong with using the players that they did under the IIHF's rules. I just don't like the rules as they are currently set up which allow guys like Perowne and Jacob to play for Serbia just because they've played for two seasons in a row there and the country decides to hand them passports to improve its national hockey team.

    Likewise, there's nothing wrong with Israel using Israeli citizens who have lived in Israel since hockey first came to exist there. The fact that they may have been born elsewhere is irrelevant, and why you continue to harp on it is mystifying.

    Obviously native-born Israelis are not as accomplished in terms of hockey as Israelis who were originally born and trained in the Soviet Union or Canada.......hockey has only existed in Israel since 1989, they're only an IIHF member since 1991, and they have always only had (and continue to only have) one regulation sized ice rink in the entire country, in the far north at that, away from the major population centers, which doesn't allow for much practice or game time, and which doesn't allow the league to progress from amateur status to anything more, and which doesn't allow the sport to gain much traction in the public consciousness. Under those circumstances, it's amazing that Israel has ever progressed to Division II at all, much less Division I.

    Nobody is attempting to claim that Israel is competing only with native born Israelis. Nor is there anything wrong with that, or anything that runs afoul of IIHF rules as a result.

    In addition to only using three lines (which is a killer), Israel has fielded a team of mostly native born Israelis the past two years, which is exactly why they are being relegated to Division III for the time being. It's no surprise. They need more rinks and a better quality domestic league if things are ever going to truly improve for them. They can't rely on ex-Soviets anymore, as those guys are all about 40 or so now, and they can't rely on their guys who play pro overseas, because they're typically unavailable for national team duty. So yes, their native born (and trained) players are going to have to improve if they want to become a stable Division II nation, much less progress.

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